The first episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to the ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh. And I'm Carley Bowman. And we're your hosts from ScreenSkills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them. Each episode, we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sectors work.
We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production. And we hear from those making the content you love.
Carley Bowman
So, Matthew, it's the ScreenSkills podcast episode one. How exciting.
Matthew Walsh
It’s a new journey for ScreenSkills and a new journey for our listeners. So, thank you all for joining us and tuning into this very first episode.
Carley Bowman
Yes, it's great to have you with us. We've got some really good stories coming up, haven't we? We've had really good chats with people from across the industry and heard some really inspiring stories.
Matthew Walsh
Yes, we have. That's right. You're going to hear one of them later, when we sat down with Annie Little, hair and make-up designer, working across both film and television to tell us about her career journey and how she navigated her path into it slightly later in life, which is a really interesting chat.
Carley Bowman
We also talked to Chad Orororo, sound designer, and Tony Schumacher, the screenwriter for The Responder. That was a great interview. They gave us a lot of their time.
Matthew Walsh
Really interesting to hear how they navigated different paths to where they are today, both hugely successful working in their fields, but yeah, a different journey into the industries, but a very interesting one. That's where we're going to kick off today. Let's have a listen.
In conversation with Chad Orororo and Tony Schumacher
Matthew Walsh
For our first episode, we sat down with sound designer Chad Orororo and screenwriter Tony Schumacher to talk about their career journeys. Chad has worked his way up from an assistant re-recording mixer to an Emmy nominated sound effects editor and designer. Along the way, he's worked on projects across both film and TV, including the Oscar nominated There After, BAFTA winning The Tinder Swindler, and Wes Anderson's The Swan.
Carley Bowman
After trying his hand as a roofer, a jeweller, a bouncer, a barman, police officer, and a cabbie, Tony actively pursued a long held dream of becoming a writer. He published three novels under Harper Collins before turning his hand to screenwriting. His first work was the BAFTA nominated BBC hit drama The Responder.
Matthew Walsh
Our conversation touched on everything from their career highlights to feeling a need to adjust to fit in. But we started by asking about what inspired them to join the screen industries.
Tony Schumacher
I mean, I always joked that what inspired me to join the industry was paying me mortgage. I always joke about it and there's a little bit of truth in that. I think mostly for me, it was I just always, always, always wanted to write for television. Even as a little kid, I didn't realise it, but as a little kid, when I played games with my mates and stuff like that. I was always like the one who was like coming up with stories and scenarios for us to play when we were playing Star Trek or something like that. You know, I was always that kid. And I kind of lost sight of it and decades, I mean, literally decades go by. And then I remembered what I wanted to do that would make me happy. And this is it.
Carley Bowman
Was there a catalyst, Tony, that made you remember?
Tony Schumacher
Yeah, no God, yeah, the mental breakdown. You know, I was homeless for a while. I lost my job. I got divorced. All that jazz, everything, you know. But the one good thing that came of it was when I come out of that period of my life, I sort of, I didn't have anything to lose. I'd nothing left to lose anymore because I'd lost everything. And it gave me an opportunity to sort of take stock of my life and say, what am I going to do next? You know, when I get well, what am I going to do next? And what can I do that will help me get well? And that was for me to be creative, to find that thing that I'd lost for so long, you know, and that was what led me into doing this.
Carley Bowman
And what was that first step? I mean, it must have been a huge step to make to get in.
Tony Schumacher
Before I my breakdown, I was doing a little bit of stand-up comedy. I was a cop, but I was also doing stand-up comedy because I didn't realise I was in the first stages of PTSD and all this kind of stuff because I wasn't getting any kind of adrenaline. I had no emotion whatsoever. So I started doing stand-up because I was looking for the thing that had terrified me the most, which was standing up front of a load of people and not being funny. But after a while, even that wasn't working. It was like I just had nothing. I was just flat, you know? And then it was like, I went through that breakdown and then when I come out the other side, I was looking, I took stock. I managed to get a house, a friend managed to get me a place to live. And I took stock of my life. And it was just the, how do we get from here to here?
So, once I realised what I wanted to do, I had to start kind of strategising and say, it's not going to happen tomorrow. It's going to happen in two years, three years. Well, how do I get on that first rung? And that was what I started doing. So I started blogging, I think, for a while. I managed to get a column in an online magazine about driving a cab and about the people who got in the taxi. That was developing me as a writer. So all the while I was kind of thinking, how can I get to the next stage? How can I get closer to that end stage, which is what I'm doing now. It was like little steps I knew would improve me as a writer. I would exercise that part of my brain that was the creative side of my brain, which would enable me to take the next step and the next step and the next step. And it took years. I mean, people say to me, my God, you just came out of nowhere. It's like, I didn't. You know, I was driving a cab for six years and I'm writing blogs and earning 20 quid for a magazine article and stuff. I was gradually improving and getting better and getting better and constantly, I mean constantly, thinking how do we get to the next stage.
Matthew Walsh
And that idea, Chad, I wonder if you've had any similar experiences of realising the end goal and taking a strategic almost step-by-step process to try to reach that. Does that speak to your experience as well?
Chad Orororo
Yeah, I was going to say I probably should have gone before Tony, my story is definitely not…. No, I think I felt like I had to have a strategy because my experience is that I was stepping into an environment that wasn't familiar to me at all. And as we all know, in particular departments and arenas within the industry, there really is a huge lack of diversity across the board. So, my thing was, okay, well, how do I find my belonging here? And how do I adjust to the culture? So that was also something that was included in the strategy of what I was doing.
I very much come from a working class background where it's hustle, hustle, hustle. I had to, kind of, refine it into something without coming across too… I started to realize I was being received as too confident or too eager. And so, there was an arc within which I sort of managed to put things in. And so, I kept my hunger there. I started out running at place called Evolutions TV. And my way of getting everything in was that I created like a pseudo company with a friend of mine. And we went around pitching for short films for free. And then what I'd do was I'd go and sit in with the mixers pretty much on all my lunch breaks, after work. I'd wait for everyone to leave the building. And then I'd start practicing what I had learned, because I didn't have the equipment at home to make that happen.
Similar to Tony, I definitely had my hardships along the way. I think, you know, like Tony, it was a money thing. Most months, you know, most people get payday and they'd go to the pub. And as you know, in the industry, that's where a lot of the networking happened. But instead of buying wine, I was buying lemonade and asking the barman to put lemonade in the wine cup because I couldn't afford to do rounds of wine and stuff like that. That was kind of where it landed me in terms of my entry point into sound.
I've always been a sound enthusiast. So I actually started out music producing and I didn't know what sound design was until I went to university. And the only reason why I went to university is because I didn't know what to do with music production once I'd finished college. So I kind of fell into it. But then once I realised, before I started at Evolutions TV, what I wanted to do, because I knew what I wanted to do, similar to Tony, it was kind of just being realistic, really realistic with timelines about how long things were going to take to get to places and not have an expectation of things happening overnight.
I remember being at Evolutions and I went from there to a place called Molinare. And in between making that decision, actually, there was a smaller post house that had approached me and said, look, if you go to Molinare, it's probably going to take you about four years to become a sound designer. Whereas we can make your sound design in six months. I remember sitting down with some of the mixers at Evolutions and said, look, I've got these two opportunities here. And in the back of my mind, I kind of knew the decision I was going to make because I've always been someone that thinks, you know, the longer and harder road usually has the better rewards.
Carley Bowman
Six months is tempting, but is it actually going get you where you want to be?
Chad Orororo
Someone, and I've always held onto it since someone said, it's better to be at the bottom of the right ladder than get stuck in the middle of the wrong one. So I got this offer and the salary was like three, four times as much as I was making as a runner. And to go to Molinare on the job that they were offering me was only about £2,000 to £3,000 pounds more. But then when I looked at the rest of the work that Molinare had, I looked at the scope for growth in a company. I thought, you know what? If I want to be in and among the best, then that's where I need to head to. Again, I took that opportunity. And it was interesting because again, coming from a working class background, I had a lot of friends that were in different arenas of work who were earning £30, £40 grand. And I was going somewhere where I was on less than half of that. So in terms of strategy, it was just trying to stay tunnel visioned.
I'm neurodivergent. So it was quite easy. Once I've got to my thing, it was actually quite easy for me to just go for it. And, I mean, I've achieved a lot more in the much shorter spirit of space to time, to be fair. So it's kind of worked in reverse by taking a long road.
Carley Bowman
It actually was the right decision.
Chad Orororo
It was actually the right decision. Yeah.
Matthew Walsh
It's quite a brave and bold move to make at that stage in your career to have that focus and just like, no, no, no, this is what I want to do. And as you say, it's paid off. What's interesting, both of you speak about having to navigate this path on your own and being committed to realising it might take time, but it's going to land me where I want to be. It's quite - on both your parts - quite a bold move to take that path by yourself. But you've also both had experience with outreach programmes or initiatives that have come to you at the right time in your career. I was wondering if you could speak about some of the most successful ones that you've been a part of.
Tony Schumacher
To go back to that point that you just said about the long road. That's the thing that I think makes barriers to the working class. I mean, Chad, you you're talking there about drinking wine, lemonade out of a wine glass, and you said there's a really interesting thing that I've never thought of, adjusting to the culture. That's like really emotionally draining, constantly. And I always think that we overlook how hard that is to get to where we are now. Do you know what I mean? We forget about that, like not us, because we've been through it, but people who look at us and don't realise it is a killer when all your mates are going out for a beer and you're like, no I can't because I've got this dream which isn't going to come true for three years. It's so difficult to stay on that road. But the thing that changed my life was ScreenSkills. I know it sounds cheesy and stuff but it’s ScreenSkills. I'd written three books that I'd basically tiptoed out into the world and sold about four copies or something like that.
I was scratching around looking for something to do. Couldn't figure out what to do. And it was my wife said to me, why don't you write for television? That's what you've always wanted to do. Why don't you make television? And I didn't know what to do. So, I just wrote a script. And then that gets in the hands is Jimmy McGovern by accident. And he was working with ScreenSkills. And that is purely the reason why I made it. That was the thing that changed my life. It kind of took away about another three or four years of barriers in one go. It just accelerated a period that made my life so much easier.
Carley Bowman
What was that programme, Tony, the connection with ScreenSkills?
Tony Schumacher
It was a mentorship. What they were doing was they were linking up established writers like Jimmy and Jed Mercurio were on it. Jeff Pope was on it. They were experienced writers who were told to go and find someone who they wanted to work with. And then, after a short period, it also went financially rewarding. I mean, I can't remember the amount at all, but it was enough. It was a significant amount, you know, at that time. In fact, now, it's not, you know, it was a good chunk of money. To just enable me to say, right, okay, I want to do this until I can get it right. It gave me a cushion.
Obviously I'm older so it's slightly different for me, but it gave me a cushion that I would imagine someone who was younger, who comes from my background or from Chad's background, wouldn't have. It gave you the luxury of being able to say, this is my job and I'm going to take time and I'm going to perfect it. I'm going to have the opportunity to treat it like a job because I'm getting paid for it. But, basically, I worked with Jimmy and then once I'd worked with Jimmy on ideas, I went away, wrote a script and that was given to a production company and that script became The Responder, which is behind me on the wall.
Matthew Walsh
And what about you Chad, were there any significant or landmark programmes that you've taken part in that you think, that's really given me a good push?
Chad Orororo
Outside of the industry I've been on programmes before. Completely out of context, but you know, from the age of like 15, I went on a rights of passage programme called Origin, which is for Afro-Caribbean men who need role models and mentors. So, I've always used programmes as a way to kind of grow and find myself in parts of communities of positive inspiration. And so, when I was at Evolutions, there was a guy, there was an editor called Michael Heros who I'd sit in with day in, day out. And he wasn't a sound editor. He was just an offline editor. And he actually recommended that I join a Sarah Putt Associates course. And it was a foundation scheme. So I joined that at the age of, I think I was 20. I did that for about six months. And I remember when I joined, they said, listen, we don't really have sound designers or aspiring sound editors on here, but maybe there's something we can do.
That then put me in the scope of the company. And every year after that, I was kind of going to their meet-ups and stuff, and I was getting to know loads of people. So that was significant enough to get my name out there. And then I'd say, yeah, I'd say the next thing after that was ScreenSkills. ScreenSkills Film Forward was what I did. And that was kind of like the programme that took me from Molinare to freelancing. And it was also the thing that took me from doing really high budget feature documentaries into feature films, narrated feature films, which is what I've always wanted to do. Because of the mechanics of the company, I just found myself a lot in documentaries. And I really didn't want to find myself pigeonholed. So aside from Molinare, I was also doing a lot of freelance work, again, on the narrative side of things to try to leverage my credentials so that I wasn't pigeonholing myself. And I always said, once I get to a point where the work on that side is now starting to disturb the work that I'm having to do at a company, it's now time to start figuring out the next move.
But I didn't know what to do. And Naomi [Joseph] at ScreenSkills who runs Film Forward, she was almost like a mum to me in the industry, you know. I got recommended to do Film Forward by another sound designer who I'd met on a two-day short course at the NFTS. So, it's interesting, it was all interlinked. It's all courses that have actually got me to the next stage.
Naomi picked up on it. And then I did a feature film called Raging Grace. So I ended up going freelance, took the jump. I took the jump at a point where I wasn't really supposed to take the jump, which was I think just coming out of COVID. And I remember, but again, and I'm sure Tony will attest to this, when you feel like you, not feel like, but when you come from what people may consider to be little, you don't feel like you have much to lose. I'd fallen down so many times by the time I was between 20 and I was probably about 27, 28 by this point. Between that seven and eight years, I'd fallen down and gotten up so many times for different reasons in the industry that I wasn't really scared of anything anymore. I just thought, well, if I'm going to really fall flat on my face, then I might as well do it now before I try and settle down, get a mortgage, have kids, get married and stuff like that. I thought this is probably the last big jump in that respect that I've got the opportunity to do this.
And then I did Film Forward for a year, going to, as I said, an indie film called Rage and Grace that did really well. And then within that same year, I'd applied for this three times and not got on it, and I remember thinking, I'm not going to stop applying for this until I get onto it. And that was the BAFTA Breakthrough 2021 cohort And again, they had never really had sound designers on there, so it was myself and another sound friend of mine called Joe. My God, this is really bad because I forgot to say his name now. Sorry, Joe. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
Matthew Walsh
Good friend of yours!
Chad Orororo
Yeah, yeah, yeah! It will come back to me and I'll drop it in. But yeah, so we were both on this course and, in terms of opportunities that gave from a point of them giving us work, probably not so much, but in terms of getting my name out there as the sound designer from East London. Yeah, it really, really pushed me out there. And then I finished that after a year and another year after that, now I'm on the ScreenSkills High-end TV Leaders of Tomorrow. So I've just graduated this week, just done my first year. I'm going into my second year now.
Carley Bowman
Congratulations, going into your second year!
Chad Orororo
Yeah! And that's, you know, meeting people like the likes of Tony through ScreenSkills. You're just massively inspired. I guess one of the things that, in terms of the programmes and stuff, I've had people come to me, I've been to some of the other ScreenSkills courses and I've had people come to me and be like, Chad, we're so inspired, like, thank you so much. You told us about this course to go on and now we're doing it. And I'm just like, I don't remember! I don't remember recommending that! But it's such a great thing to see what ScreenSkills and other programmes can do for people. And I don't think it's just the opportunity, I think it's the confidence to step in and being in among people, as I said, having to adjust the cultures, but also bringing your culture into the industry and having people revere that and accept that and be like, wow, this is okay. This is different, but this works.
Matthew Walsh
Is that an aspect that you've seen any changes in within the industry? Like you say, you've brought your own culture to it. Has that culture been more naturalised across the industry?
Chad Orororo
If I'm going to be completely transparent, not, always. I think that, you know, I tend to find this industry very personable. And so sometimes there's always that saying, don't take it personally, but it's very difficult not to, you know. As a person, there's parts of my personality that definitely feed into my work. And so, I think, not only are you battling just work culture, you're also just dealing with different personalities and different facets of that. But I mean, there are people that have really been open to it and there's people that haven't. And I always say to, whether it's young people or people, try to find your tribe. It will come to you eventually, but you know, not everyone's going to be for you. And I think if we're going to talk about an industry where we're storytelling, I think there's a part of us that should expect that anyways. That there's going to be differences and there's going to be people that don't accept it. There are going to be people that accept it. And you kind of just got to find your people and find the bits of the culture or bits of the industry that you agree with. And then for the parts that don't is just make it more of a place of exception.
When I think about culture and inclusion, I don't think about, okay, well, we need to cancel those guys out there because you know, they're sort of like upper class and they're privileged. It's like, no, they've got a place in this industry too, just like we've got a place in this industry. So I think in terms of inclusion, it's just a lot about acceptance and trying to understand, okay, I'm not from your culture. What are the differences? What maybe can I learn from over there and what can you maybe learn from over here and try to bridge that gap a little bit. But, also be accepting of the fact that sometimes it just doesn't happen.
Carley Bowman
Like you say, people working in the screen industries are interested in the storytelling and the narrative, so we should be interested in each other's stories as well, right?
Chad Orororo
For sure. And understanding those.
Carley Bowman
Interesting. I'm really keen just to go back to, it's about culture, but particularly working as freelancers, which can be really challenging. Obviously, through COVID, everything that's happened, the landscape is quite tricky out there in film and TV at the moment. So, what do you think? How can the industry improve things for freelancers? Tony, maybe you've got some views?
Tony Schumacher
There is always that low level anxiety, you know, doing what we do. I mean, it sounds mad, but I keep thinking I'm going to be back driving a cab in four years. I mean, literally when The Responder came out, I still had my taxi driving license and it was due to expire. I remember sitting with my wife thinking, should I just renew it? And in some ways, I think it's not a bad thing for me because I think if I got too complacent, I'd probably get a bit lazy. So, in some ways it works really well for me because it keeps giving me that kick to keep going down the road.
But conversely, I totally agree with Chad when he said, it's not a long way for us to fall. You know, if we keep tripping over early on in our careers, it feels like you've just tripped over and you're going to get back up, you're going to start running. But there is a sense that it's harder for us to get back up than it is for people who've got more established networks in the industry. And I think that there's a world, I mean, there's a great conversation to start to happen now, and it's early days, and I do hope things improve. But you do wonder if there should be more thought given to people who don't have a cushion.
I think as an industry, you look at that strategy as a stage, you know what, we need new stories, we need new voices, we need new skills, we need new younger people who are going to carry this thing forward. And they're always the first to get the bullet, to be off, you know, it's just the nature of it. They're always the first to get thrown out. And I think that maybe as a...you know, for the sake of itself, I the industry needs to look at that.
Carley Bowman
And what about with people starting out then? And obviously, you talk about there are going to be some knockbacks, there are going to be some falls along the way and it's picking yourself back up. So resilience is kind of a big quality. What piece of advice would you give to somebody who's kind of starting out in the industry?
Tony Schumacher
It's so trite, I know, but was something said years ago at a talk. It's that all the people who are here still doing it - Chad, me, Jimmy McGovern, Jed Mercurio, you know, all of these people, they are the ones who didn't give up. It's just that simple and there are probably loads of Jimmy McGoverns, loads of Chads, loads of Tony Schumachers who give up who could have been just as successful as us, but you just give up. And you can't give up. But that said, I totally understand why people give up because they've got to pay bills, they've to feed the kids. They've got to just get up in the morning and look at themselves in the mirror. So I totally understand it.
But I just think the only thing I can say is don't forget why you started trying is the big thing. And then if you've got to give up, it doesn't mean you give up forever. You've got to hold on to that dream.
Matthew Walsh
And what about you, Chad? Are there any traits that you would say are strong to have in this industry?
Chad Orororo
Yeah, just to double back, my friend's name is Joe Jackson.
Carley Bowman
Thanks Joe Jackson!
Chad Orororo
Yeah, I completely relate to what Tony was saying. I say to a lot of young people coming in, look, you know, I'm genuinely driven by the passion of what I do. I have a real knack for the craft as well.
I think if you can find yourself very ego driven in this industry. And I think this industry is very great at soothing egos and stroking people's egos. You've got the red carpets, you know what I mean? You've got yourself in articles and stuff like that. And this is me being completely honest. There have been times, like when I went to the Emmys in 2022. The night before I had 10p in my account before I got on my flight. I managed to get an advance from a job which gave me £2,000 before I went out for that weekend. But I had literally had 10p and I didn't know what I was going to do when I got out there. I thought, I'll make something work somehow. But that sometimes is the reality.
What you see in front of you or the successes you see in front of you, doesn't mean that behind closed doors, it is completely accurate of that.
Carley Bowman
The reality behind the glamour.
Chad Orororo
Yeah, the reality behind the glamour. I think, like Tony, I think there has to be something more. I've made my journey a lot bigger than myself. I think that's what keeps me here. There have been so many… I'd be lying if I said I haven't thought about giving up.Last year and the year before that! It's probably most years, I'm like, man can't do this anymore. But I think when I think about the young people that I get emails from, even some of the people that I've supported, man, they say, Chad, you have to keep going, man. There are so many people out here that are coming from where you're coming from. It is that kind of extra thing that kind of keeps you here. I would always urge young people or people coming in, regardless of age, is really know yourself and know what this does for you, as well as what you're doing for it. Because I don't think there's anything wrong with parking somewhere and saying, okay, for now I've done what I can do. Let me go off and get some… and I'd imagine for writers, maybe that's sometimes the perfect thing to do is, you know, if you've been writing for maybe 10 odd years, you probably might need a two year break. You might need some inspiration of sorts, you know. And I think as a creative, sometimes you need to kind of just take a step back so that you don't completely burn that creative part of yourself out. Because I think I do feel that once you start losing that, this becomes a real job.
And I find myself very fortunate. I also find myself very lucky because I've always said, I get paid to make people feel through sound. Or I get paid essentially to make noise. I don't want to say my job isn't hard. You know, I've worked some of the craziest hours that you can imagine, but I'm not on the front line somewhere saving lives and battling and having to pull people from potential burning buildings and stuff. Not to be, you know, so dramatic, but there is a whole world outside of what we do. And I think reminding myself of that keeps me sort of level and grounded in this industry.
In terms of telling young people what to do, I'll just say hone in on your own story. You've got your own story in this industry and you're creating it every day. And, you know, I'm a God-fearing man. So I just say what's for me won't pass me. And I'll do as much as I can do and I just leave the rest to God, to be fair, but everyone's got their own way of seeing it. But that's the way I see it. And that's what I encourage young people to do.
Carley Bowman
We've spoken a lot about the difficulties of working, freelance life, the industry, its culture, all of those things. There must be some really good times though as well, right? There's got to be some, Tony?
Tony Schumacher
I know I've got the best job in the world for me. I couldn't be happier than what I do. I love it. I just love it. I just think, you know, and sometimes like Chad says, it is good to take a little step back and go, I need a week off here, you know. But I would literally come in this office seven days a week, 12 hours a day. To me, I'm so lucky. And like, whisper it, but I'd do it for free if I could. You know, if I had the money, I'd just sit here and do this all day every day. It's just great, but I also enjoy the fight that it took me to get here. I think that's part of me and I think it is a Chad as well. I might be wrong, but I think that we also enjoy the battle that we've been on. And I think you do have to have a little bit of scrap in there, you know. That you want to fight your way through something.
I remember going to a meeting years ago, four years ago, and somebody said at the meeting, you know, I feel so sorry for you because we know when to swear in a meeting that you don't. Really patronising. And I remember getting really angry with that person in my head, not in their room, because they're entitled to their opinion, but I'm getting really angry with them. And it's only now I look back at it and I think, like I feed on that a little bit. I think I feed on that thing about wanting to just, I'm going to say destroy people. Didn't mean it like that, but wanting to just, you know what mean? So that's what I enjoy, I think. I think that's where I get a lot of my energy from.
Carley Bowman
This is a no swearing podcast! Just saying!
Tony Schumacher
I know! I'll pull it right back!
Carley Bowman
All of us!
Chad Orororo
I can vouch for that as well, to be fair. I can definitely relate to Tony where I've definitely experienced gatekeeping and a certain level of pushback. And again, coming from where I come from is kind of eat or be eating and I always say I'm not food.
I don't ever bring on or welcome trouble or welcome that type of behaviour. But I do know if I get pushed and I have to push back, I'm pushing back a thousand times stronger than what I've been pushed. And I think that when you've done that enough times, you also have the confidence of knowing again, if you fall over, once I get up and dust myself off, I'm going to fly.
And I think that's happened so many times. I've hit some really, really dark times. Really, really dark times. Because I think there's the industry stuff, and then there's also just personal life stuff. And as a creative, one can definitely affect the other. If my mind's not in a certain space, I find it really difficult to hone in and even sound design sometimes. So, I'd say, from what I've learned of the industry, it's also just created a blueprint for my life. It’s not just that I’ve taken lessons and it's just industry stuff. I've obviously taken real life lessons from my experiences in the industry.
I hope that answers the question.
Matthew Walsh
Absolutely. Both of you. Thank you so much for taking part in this.
Carley Bowman
You really sound like you've both found your home in this industry somewhere and the way that you've been able to deal with the challenges, dust yourself off, Chad, as you said, to get back up. I'm sure there are fantastic things in the future for you, and inspiring other people is the key thing that you can do. And hopefully do by sharing your stories with us that’s what you’ll be doing.
Chad Orororo
Thank you thank you so much for listening.
Interview summary
Carley Bowman
Thanks to Tony and Chad. So, Matthew, what did you think? I thought that was a really, really good conversation.
Matthew Walsh
Yes, really interesting. I thought both of them, obviously they've worked in different sectors and they've come from different areas and stages of their own career, but both sharing similarities in how they've navigated their own path into the industry, some of the battles they faced and how they've got their way through it. Yes, really fascinating to hear.
Carley Bowman
And inspirational. So it's really great to talk to them.
Matthew Walsh
So just to touch on some of the programmes that they mentioned there. The first one that Tony mentioned was the High-end TV New Writers Programme, which was developed by the High-end TV Skills Fund, alongside Dancing Ledge Production Company, where he worked with his mentor Jimmy McGovern to help develop the first series of The Responder. And then Chad, who came through Film Forward, that was the first one that he brought up.
Carley Bowman
And now, as he said, he's a High-end TV leader of tomorrow on the Leaders of Tomorrow programme.
Matthew Walsh
That’s right, yes. Newly graduated from year one, about to start year two. If you want to find out any more about any of those programs, visit the ScreenSkills website.
Demystifying the TV Access Project and The 5As with Eli Beaton
Matthew Walsh
In this series we're demystifying roles, programmes and initiatives in the screen industries. Today we're talking about embedding accessibility into the workplace and we're joined by Eli Beaton, the project lead for the TV Access Project and The 5As. So Eli, can you tell us about the project? What are the 5As?
Eli Beaton
The TV Access Project is an alliance of the 10 main broadcasters and streamers in the UK who have joined forces with an overall goal of creating full inclusion by 2030. One of the really important areas that we wanted to focus on was making sure that there are templates and standards which everyone can adopt to make sure they're embedding access and inclusion into whatever area they're working in. It can be relevant to production, it can be relevant to legal departments, training.
The five A's are anticipate. So, anticipate that you're going to be working with disabled people. And this is a really important one because we need to think about access before anyone's even joined our teams.
We should be making our sets, our offices and all of our processes as inclusive as possible. And that really takes away the burden from disabled people having to always ask for adjustments to be made. So where possible, if we can think about that in advance, that's going to make a huge difference to team members joining us.
The next one is ask. So making sure that we are asking everyone that we're working with whether they've got any access requirements. And that is really important. We are a really informal industry in the screen industry. Our hiring processes for a long time have been really informal. So we've missed that really crucial step where when you are joining a new team or joining an organisation, having a disclosure conversation.
The next one is assess. So, thinking about the spaces that we're working with and being really clear and transparent about the accessibility of those spaces. And again, this is about taking away the burden from the individual to have to go away and find out that information. So if you've got an actor coming to set or you've got someone coming to your edit suite, they know in advance whether they are able to access that building, whether there's a lift, whether there's an accessible toilet, whether there's a quiet space for them to go and use. So it is about providing as much information in advance as possible.
The next one is adjust. Adjusting our working patterns accordingly, our environments accordingly, and always delivering that consistently and ahead of time. I think adjust is a really good one for our creative industry because we're really good at, you know, problem solving, coming up with creative solutions and it's exactly the same with access requirements. We're just thinking about how we can do things a little bit differently. Whether that's changing the schedule or whether that's coming up with a different location that everyone can have access to.
And then the final A is advocate. Making sure we're advocating for disabled talent on and off screen, but also making sure that all of our team are playing their part when it comes to inclusion. So, setting really high standards for everyone that we're working with.
Carley Bowman
Amazing, Eli. Thank you. Really good, concise description. Just one question. How far does the industry, in your view, have to go to make it more inclusive?
Eli Beaton
We've still got a way to go. We know from the data such as the CDN's Diamond 7th cut that we are still definitely underrepresented when it comes to disabled talent, both on and off screen. We do have a long way to go, but the great thing about the TV Access Project is that we have been coming up with really tangible, practical solutions that will work in the long run. So it's not about, you know, sticking plasters.
We are working together to make really long-lasting solutions that are relevant across the whole industry. One of the big focuses at the moment for the TV Access Project is those physical spaces, because we know that that's going to be one of the most expensive, possibly one of the most logistical challenges that we have. But we are coming up with real solutions like a self-audit that organisations can do, where they're assessing their space and they can then communicate that to disabled talent but also come up with a little bit of a roadmap for themselves. If they know that they've got certain areas that they need to improve they can then come up with an annual plan. This year we're going to focus on improving our signage, next year we'll get to making sure that we've got a step-free access to the building. So it's about breaking it down into really manageable chunks and that way it's much less scary.
Matthew Walsh
On the whole, how do you feel the industry has responded to the TV Access Project and in particular the 5 A's?
Eli Beaton
They have responded brilliantly. I think the industry - you know, no one is setting out to be ableist or excluding any type of groups - but I think it's just about having information and having guidance and hearing from disabled people about what needs to perhaps be done a little bit differently. And that's the other really great thing about the TV Access Project is that it's disabled led. We've got lots of amazing disabled led groups who are partnering with us, who have helped us develop the 5As. So having this template makes such a huge difference because it's easy to remember and it can be applied to anything and any job role and any level as well. Even if you're a runner and you're a new entrant and you're wanting to make sure that you're being more inclusive, you can adopt the 5As in your working practice. If you're a commissioner and you're wanting to make sure that you've got really good representation on screen, but also, you've got really great disabled talent making those programmes, you can apply the 5As to the commissioning process as well.
So yes, it's been picked up widely and we're really delighted to see that it's been seen as a useful tool.
Carley Bowman
So obviously you've got the target of 2030. What impact do you hope the TV Access Project and the 5As will have on the industry and what are the steps for getting there?
Eli Beaton
So, everything that the TV Access project is doing is working towards making us redundant! The TV Access project isn't going to be here forever but everything that we're doing is with the goal to really embed it into the industry. So ScreenSkills is a great example. Alongside ScreenSkills, we've created these really brilliant animation videos about the 5As that anyone can pick up and use in their training or present to their organisation.
We're also launching in January 2025 a series of training for freelancers on how to embed the 5As into individual job roles. So, if you work in casting, it's how to embed the 5As in the casting process. If you work in production management, it's how to embed the 5As throughout production management. Working with partners like ScreenSkills, we are ensuring that all of the work that we're doing is really embedded into the industry. In 10, 20, 30 years time, whenever a new entrant joins, they'll know about the five As and they'll be practising it throughout their careers. And it's just going to become the status quo.
That's the overall goal. The aim is for there to be no TV Access Projects ultimately. We’re working ourselves out of a job! You know, there will still always be work to do, but by working with our members, our broadcasters and streamers who are changing their systems, by working with partners like yourselves who are making these long lasting resources and tools and frameworks, that's what's going to make TAP a legacy that continues on in our industry.
Matthew Walsh
That's great. I have to say, I think the 5As, in particular the way they're formatted, makes it really digestible and easy to implement and practical advice for the industry and productions across the UK. Is there any piece of advice that you would give to someone if they're looking to implement them within their own workplace? Where would they go to find out more?
Eli Beaton
Head to ScreenSkills website and watch those animation videos because they give some really good examples of how you can apply the 5As to the different areas of your work. And I think, you know, the most important message is that accessibility shouldn't be scary and it shouldn't be difficult and hopefully the five A's really reflect that t doesn't need to be a really complicated process. It doesn't need to be daunting. It is about making those really small changes, making sure that you're asking questions, just thinking about accessibility.
I really hope that the five As empower everyone to know that they can make a difference and just try it out because I think the scariest thing is when people just haven't had a go at doing it. It's the fear of getting it wrong and that's absolutely fine and that's absolutely normal.
I work in disability inclusion full-time. I'm a full-time disabled person and I still make mistakes but that's absolutely fine if you're coming at it with good intentions, and the 5As will give you a really good framework for just having a go. You'll be surprised how easy it is to be an inclusive person.
Storytime with hair and make-up artist Annie Little
Carley Bowman
Annie Little joins us now to talk about her career journey. A qualified hair and make-up artist and wig specialist, her early career was spent working in theatre and for creative companies, including in Canada. Upon returning to London and securing her first job in film and TV on the ITV series Victoria, she struggled to find further work. Applying for the ScreenSkills Trainee Finder Programme, gave her the break she was looking for and now Annie has just graduated from the High-end TV Leaders of Tomorrow programme.
Not only that, she is now delivering training in hair and make-up for textured hair and darker skin tones, which is funded by the High-end TV Skills Fund.
Annie, sounds like an amazing journey. Take us back to the beginning and just tell us how you've navigated your career.
Annie Little
Hi there. I was born and raised in London and my family was Caribbean. My parents were Jamaican. So I grew up in a working class household.
I was always very creative. I always liked art, film, colour, hair, people, music. It was those kind of things I was drawn very much so. But my career, I didn't really have a career plan. I wanted to be either a teacher or a journalist, but ended up working as a civil servant because my parents felt it was very important to have a steady job. I did that for a few years. When I was younger, I was about 22. I had a child and that really changed the direction of my career. I felt that I needed to have more of a plan and more of a career path, I guess. And so I wanted to tap into being an artist.
So, I went to college, took a career break from the job that I had, went to college and studied. But I should back up a little bit because I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Because I was a civil servant, because I was creative, I really needed some support and help to find out what it was I could do. So I visited a local job centre, career centre and put in all my interests and out came the word make-up artist. That was an ‘aha’ moment for me and from there everything followed. I went to make-up school and it just started a whole career for me.
Matthew Walsh
So, you started obviously as a make-up artist as you just said. What inspired the move and transfer into the screen industries?
Annie Little
Well the screen industries to be honest was not a place I saw myself, it was not a place that I wanted to be. I had absolutely no interest in filming and, I know it sounds really odd now, but that's the truth. It looked to me like a lot of hours so I just thought that's just not the place for me. I'm quite spontaneous and quite flexible and I like to own my own time and I didn't think it would be that for me. But when I was in college, there was a group of us together and we all graduated together and we all sort of splintered off. And one of my close friends at college, she ended up in TV, in drama. I followed her career while I was having mine, and she was the person that introduced me to the industry. She was doing really well and she just said, just try it. And I kept saying no.
Then there was a moment when I could say yes and I did. And it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be very clicky and I thought it was going to be… I thought I was going to be found out. Meaning I thought they were going to use words and language that I didn't understand. And I was very resistant to it.
Carley Bowman
And how did you come across Trainee Finder? Because that was one of the things that helped you transition.
Annie Little
Yes, well, at the time, I was living in Canada. I spent almost 20 years in Canada and every three or four years I'd come back to the UK and visit and then I'd see my friend. On one of those visits, we spoke and my father was ill at the time and so I sort of made a decision to put everything on hold in Canada and come back to the UK. It was during that time I thought, well, if I'm going to be in film and if she's going to invite me to film - and she'd given me one job at that time - I thought, let me see how the land lies. Let me see, you know, what the opportunities are. And the job that I was on, there was a trainee there and she was on Trainee Finder. I could see the help that she was getting. She was doing courses, she was getting support, she was getting bursaries and she had made a group of friends. That was my first introduction to Trainee Finder.
So, I did my own research and I thought if I'm going to be in this career, I need support. And I was an older person at the time as well and I didn't want to waste time, jobbing, you know. I thought let me just go straight away and find out the support system. Like I did back then when I was trying to change my career, you know, I thought there are professionals that know the landscape better than I do and ScreenSkills. That was it. I thought these guys will be my partners, unofficially.
Matthew Walsh
That's great. Part of what I always like about Trainee Finder is the production elements where you get the placement. Just wondering either on that specific placement or is there any other production experience that you've had that springs to mind as a particularly interesting part of your screen career?
Annie Little
Well, when I did Trainee Finder, I went through the whole process like everyone else and I was lucky enough to get my first job under Trainee Finder. I hadn't started it yet, I'd sort of signed on, but there was another job coming up that I had my eye on and thought, I want that one instead. And so my very first experience in Trainee Finder was A, supportive, but two, was a dilemma for me because there were two jobs that were in front of me.
Being on Trainee Finder helped me to make the right decision about where I was at the time. And that led to a really great job for me.
Carley Bowman
Annie, just tell us a little bit about what it's like being on set as a hair and make-up artist.
Annie Little
Well, I can speak now from a point of view of having done it. But at the time, when I first started, I didn't know anything about the film industry. Didn't know anything that was expected of me. Being on set is... once you've figured out a routine for yourself, it's pretty standard and it's not as glamorous, I guess, as everyone thinks it is. But it's hard work, it's enjoyable, and your day pretty much goes very quickly. But, there's just so much to do on set, really.
Carley Bowman
The first time you walked on set, what was that feeling like? I mean, I imagine there would have been an element of fear, excitement, all of those things. Did you feel at home? Just describe that feeling.
Annie Little
I didn't feel at home. The very first job that I did was the very first job that my friend had employed me for. And if you remember, my reservation really was that I wouldn't A, fit in, I wouldn't know the language and I'd be sort of found out. So I was very closed. I remember just going on to set and not saying anything, not trying to get to know anyone because I didn't really want anyone to talk to me as if I'd been there a long time. I was very evasive. But from that position, I could sort of look around and see what was going on. And I had my friend who was a colleague at the same time. I could have her to go back to and say, you know, at the end of the day, this is what happened and that is what happened and what does that mean and who is that person? I had someone to sort of check in with.
So that first experience was a little bit daunting, a little bit intimidating. And especially when everyone else, they all know each other. But I did find it quite friendly. People were very friendly.
Matthew Walsh
You must have been doing something right because the next thing that we've got with the ScreenSkills involvement was Leaders of Tomorrow, which is a mid-level career programme where you have to be nominated by an industry colleague and identified as someone working in the industry, ready to make the next step in their career into a more senior role.
I just wonder if you could talk us through what you were looking to get from the programme and, as you are graduating as part of the first cohort, how do you think it helps you with your career?
Annie Little
Well, much like my initial start with Trainee Finder, it was a supportive element. And with Trainee Finder, I was an older person coming into a career that was new to me and so I had experience. So going through being a trainee, I obviously hit a block where I needed to jump on to the next level. That led me to the next block, which was eventually Leaders of Tomorrow. And I used, or I wouldn't say used, but utilised ScreenSkills in their programmes to help me move up and to help me keep going forward. And because I'm older, for myself personally, I didn't feel I had 15, 20 years to figure things out. I wanted to move swiftly. Not fast, not ahead before I was ready, but I needed to move forward. And it was always a forward motion. So, from ScreenSkills, Trainee Finder, doing work in the industry, Leaders of Tomorrow was just really the next junction on my path, I would say.
Carley Bowman
And there's another path that you're taking as well now as a trainer. This is really interesting, so tell us about Blckstr and tell us about the training that you're providing and what the aim is.
Annie Little
You know something, when people talk about it like that, as a journey. It's Trainee Finder, Leaders of Tomorrow, Blckstr. It feels really quick, but it really wasn't. All of the junctions were years in the making. The run up to being a trainee, then working in the industry and then getting on to Leaders of Tomorrow and then run up to doing the training courses. I am a lifetime learner. I really enjoy being in a classroom. I enjoy meeting new people. I enjoy solving problems creatively. I had been listening to the conversations going on from actors and actresses who felt they weren't getting as equal treatment at the make-up mirror. It was really important for me to do something worthwhile, I guess. It was just an idea that I'd had for quite a long time and my colleague in film, she had a similar idea and we sort of met together and discussed it. And an opportunity came up within ScreenSkills in one of their tendering processes. And I just thought, well, it's now or never really. And so I made a proposal and it was accepted and it's taken me more forward.
But Blackstar was in the distance, it wasn't as close as it is now, but I'm glad it's happened and it's really been moving forward and it's been really received really well. And we embrace all artists who want to know more about textured hair and make-up on people of colour.
Matthew Walsh
I think it's a really worthwhile programme and it's one of our most important ones. I was just wondering if you could speak about what drew you to it specifically and why do you think it's such an important one for the industry?
Annie Little
I mean, there are different elements to it and there are different reasons for it. One of the reasons was my own experience. Just looking for make-up for myself out in the real world. Another element was when I was a trainee, I mean, I always go back to that time because it formulated everything that I've done since then. Because when you're a trainee, you get a chance to look around. You're in close proximity to a lot of things and I could see a lot of things happening and I wasn't able to make any suggestions. I wasn't able to make any changes. I wasn't able to make any impact just because of the grade level that I was at. And so I felt that when I had the opportunity, I was going to speak up and in a way, this is an opportunity to speak up and advocate for actors that I couldn't advocate for before. I just wanted to also create a programme that helped both parties - the artist and the actor - without blaming or shaming either side. Just trying to create a resolution and a solution, really, and to make it a bit of a positive experience. There's a lot of negative chatter sometimes. Rightly so. But there are ways to deal with issues that can create positivity and build confidence.
Carley Bowman
Thank you, Annie, so much. It's been lovely to talk to you.
Annie Little
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Episode summary
Matthew Walsh
So that was it, the first episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. Thanks to all our guests for taking part and to you for listening. If you want any more information on the ScreenSkills programmes mentioned in this episode, go to the ScreenSkills website where you find lots of information on Film Forward, Leaders of Tomorrow and Trainee Finder, as well as the accessibility 5As as mentioned by Ellie.
Carley Bowman
In the next episode, we'll be recording live from our Skills for Change conference with the Adobe Foundation, with a panel discussing diversity and inclusion in the screen industries. We'll hear from our Chief Executive Laura Mansfield on the ScreenSkills five-year strategy and we'll be putting your questions to author, broadcaster and campaigner Dr Amit Patel.
Matthew Walsh
Email us at podcast@screenskills.com to get your questions over. But until then, thank very much for listening and we'll see you next time.
Episode credits
Carley Bowman
This has been a ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carley Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock with guest-booking by Anna Green and marketing by Natalie Tando. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
Launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, the podcast explores issues impacting the screen industries by speaking to those working in production across the UK. The first episode features a conversation with Emmy-nominated sound designer, Chad Orororo and screenwriter Tony Schumacher, the creator of BAFTA-nominated BBC drama, The Responder.
The pair discuss their journey to and within the industry, navigating feelings of being an outsider and speak about the training programmes that helped them get to where they are today. They touch upon the New Writers Mentorship and Leaders of Tomorrow programmes, developed by the High-end TV Skills Fund and Film Forward, supported by the Film Skills Fund.
Discover more
Read Tony Schumacher's case study
Discover more
Read Chad Orororo's case study
In our Demystifying segment, Eli Beaton from the TV Access Project joins us to break down the 5As - a set of guidelines for disability inclusion - and offers practical advice on adopting these practices to create more accessible working environments.
Discover more
Find out more about the 5As
The episode then hears from hair and make-up designer, Annie Little, in a Storytime segment, where she discusses coming to the industry later in her career and how being part of Skills Fund programmes Trainee Finder and Leaders of Tomorrow gave her the opportunity and confidence to launch her own platform, Blckstr, where she trains others in working with textured hair and make-up for all skin tones.
Discover more
Read Annie Little's case study