The sixth episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to the Screen Skills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh. And I'm Carley Bowman. And we're your hosts from ScreenSkills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them. Each episode, we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work.
We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production and we hear from those making the content you love.
EPISODE INTRO
Carley Bowman
Hi Matthew, how are you doing?
Matthew Walsh
I'm good, how are you?
Carley Bowman
Yeah, very well thank you. Looking forward to this episode.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, it's an interesting one this month. Just to give you an idea of what we'll be discussing, we spoke to intimacy coordinator Yarit Dor about her role and her journey within the screen industry. Quite an interesting discussion because it's a new role in itself.
Carley Bowman
Yeah, absolutely. And it's really interesting, her particular journey, because she started on the stage in London's West End just a few years ago. And she was the first intimacy director on the West End stage. And then she translated that into screen. And she's worked on some quite well-known shows that people recognise quite recently, such as Rivals, which is a Disney+ show, and various other things.
And the role of intimacy coordinator is pretty much in the news every month at the moment, Matthew, isn't it?
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, it's never far from the headlines within the screen industry. So it's interesting to get a perspective from someone who does the role herself and is well versed in the ins and outs and what it takes to succeed at that level, the communication skills, dependency on other departments as well. So it's really interesting to get to know how connected these things are.
Carley Bowman
And she also talks about how well received the role is. Obviously sometimes it's very welcome, people really want to engage with the role. But also, she does get some pushback as well, which is quite interesting to hear.
Matthew Walsh
She won't go into details understandably about which productions. Alongside Rivals she's worked in things like Knives Out, Wicked, Rings of Power, the Lord of the Rings series. So yeah, she's all across a small and big screen.
Carley Bowman
And also in this episode, we're taking a little bit of a deeper look at one of ScreenSkills big programmes for people working in animation and children's TV.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, that's right. That is DreamBig!, which is a kind of flagship new entrant initiative that was first developed by the Children's TV Skills Fund. But for the first time ever, it's partnered with the Animation Skills Fund to help those looking to take the first steps within children's or animation get a taste of production life, alongside some vital training.
Carley Bowman
And we're talking to some of the participants on that programme. They came into the ScreenSkills office and we had the pleasure of having a chat with them. And we also hear from our own Sarah Joyce, who's head of the Unscripted TV Skills Fund and Children's TV Skills Fund.
But first, I think we're going to go to that conversation with Yarit.
Matthew Walsh
Let's do it.
INTERVIEW WITH INTIMACY COORDINATOR YARIT DOR
Yarit Dor
Hi, I'm Yarit Dor. I'm an intimacy coordinator. My pronouns are she, her.
Matthew Walsh
So Yarit, thank you for joining us for the ScreenSkills podcast. So intimacy coordinator, it's a fairly new role or fairly new to the lexicon when it comes to screen production. I wonder if you could just start by giving an overview of what the role is and how did you get involved?
Yarit Dor
Okay, wow. I mean, there are different versions of how the history of intimacy coordination started.
I would say the intimacy practice predominantly actually started in theatre. And to be honest, I mean, if we really want to track back, we could say that actors and directors and costume departments have had to deal with intimacy for decades. But I would say this kind of more contemporary practice was very much pushed forward because of a performer.
When Emily Mead on The Deuce spoke up and talked about her experiences, and the fact that she went to the executive producers of The Deuce and HBO and they discussed how the process of intimacy scenes was handled on their set. They started interviewing people for this new role.
My background was in theatre and still is, so I was already a fight director and a movement director of off-West End and West End productions. So I went to train as an intimacy director, which is for live performance, partially because I knew a couple of people that were kind of developing it in the States, because they came from the fight direction background.
So I literally just went for a workshop out of interest, I'll be honest. It was never this moment of like, this is my life's goal, you know? I literally went for a two week workshop intensive and I was like you know I'll put myself into it, see how it is and then I realised that the skills they were teaching were helpful for me as a movement person or as a fight director because all those discussions about power about representation in the room, about consent in the room, of how to get into emotional scenes that require either violence or intimacy or passion, but how to kind of sandwich your way into achieving it. That was really useful.
So when I came back, I had a theatre production that I was already working on as a fight director, and they said, yeah, there's some kissing and we want to add a making out section. Can you help us because of your training? And I was like, Yeah, sure, let's put this in practice.
And then I started getting more and more jobs that had the combination until one of the projects I was involved with, The Death of a Salesman, went to the West End and suddenly my agent got a BBC producer saying, hey, we're looking for an intimacy coordinator. And at the time I didn't do it for film and TV. I only did it for theatre. So they interviewed me and the director has worked with a lot of theatre people. And I said to them, Look, I haven't done it for a film and TV. So then I contacted Alicia Rodis [American intimacy coordinator, director and actress], which was one of my teachers for the theatre for the intimacy direction. And she was already, you know, she's done The Deuce and she's done so many other projects for HBO and created the kind of HBO style of intimacy coordination. So she said, take the job. We'll have kind of mentoring sessions. I'll take you through some of the differences.
And also, I had something similar with Amanda Cutting that is in Canada because I knew her from another training. So basically that's how I kind of started moving it into film and TV. I was very lucky that I had a director that wanted to work with an intimacy coordinator. The lead actors were way into, you know, testing it out. I think there was a lot of curiosity of like, what is this? How can we use this? Am I going to hate this? Am I going to love this?
The first AD, I think, felt very reassured that she wouldn't have to have like 10 eyes and absolutely everything, but she very fast understood that I'm there to watch over some of the stuff so she can just focus on her work and not kind of hyper worry about absolutely everybody. So it was a really nice first experience, which kind of made me feel like, okay, maybe I enjoy this. Maybe I would like to continue. Then I continue to the next job and the next job and it's been a rocky road.
There are some jobs that you really feel you can sink your teeth in and there are some jobs that you meet a lot of resistance. You meet a lot of biases about the role and you feel a bit like a tick-box.
Matthew Walsh
What's that balance like then of trying to obviously get the best out of the actors they give a true performance but also, you know, wanting to be on their side, but working with the director as well. You're balancing a few different things. I was wondering how it works practically if an actor is more reluctant than another, but the director wants you to do one thing. How do you manage that situation?
Yarit Dor
Well, there are so many factors that you need to consider. What I found is that actors, they're the experts in acting. Like most of them know how to act. So from my perspective, I never necessarily give acting notes or thoughts.
It's more about the movement. Is the movement believable? Is the tension between them believable? Are we getting the correct story from a physical perspective? But sometimes you get actors that have boundaries around nudity or especially simulated sex action, or the depiction of it, that they're willing to perform.
And you have a vision from a director that wants it to look in a very particular way and sometimes those things don't meet. And obviously the director has chosen that actor because they're brilliant in what they do in all the other scenes. So the question is how do you kind of make those two artists meet somewhere in the middle that they're both happy and they want to work together because they're both artists.
So I find that sometimes our role really becomes a translator because the director might have different language. Some directors haven't come through drama school or theatre training or directing training. They might have come from a slightly different route. So their notes might not be completely understandable to an actor that has had a different route. And then sometimes you have to kind of say, well, I get that this is the vision. These are the restrictions that we're working with. So let's see how with those restrictions, can we still get a vision as close as what you want it?
Sometimes that's choosing different camera angle, different camera movement, different ways of editing it that they do later. Sometimes if it needs to be very explicit intimacy and that actor is not happy to show a lot or perform explicit action, it is working with a double. And a body double, if they're really good and they've done this type of work before, it's like having a stunt double. It's quite amazing. They can get a physical note in two seconds and adapt.
I've done two seasons of a show in which the lead performer has used a body double for all intimate scenes. And they have a really good relationship with each other. The actor is there when we're filming it. The actor can come and coach the double. When they have to swap for like close-ups, you know, the actor talks with the double and they're like, where was this bit? How are you sitting? And they're just collaborating with each other in a really nice way.
So, you know, I feel like sometimes a body double is seen as like, this is going to be a shooting problem. It's like, it's a restriction which you have to work with, yes, but sometimes you can get more raw, explicit material that you really wanted in your vision, combined with the acting in mid shots or close ups of the actor that you wanted. So, you know, there's plus and minuses in everything.
Carley Bowman
Is it kind of standard now on set in the UK, would you say, or is it still something that is additional and thought of not necessarily right at the beginning of the production process?
Yarit Dor
Each production company or studio has their own internal policies around the need of this role and when the union promotes for the role to be present on set, especially for nudity and simulated sex scenes, because that's the highest risk scenes really. But there is no rule or no law or no must, essentially.
And that's evident in the fact that sometimes actors say, I don't want this person on set. And then the producer has to calibrate, okay, that's what they want. What do we want as the employer having to deal with all of this.
Carley Bowman
Why would an actor say no? Have you come across that before? yeah. When you've been on a job?
Yarit Dor
Yeah. If I look at my experiences, the pendulum is from, it's almost 50-50 at the moment. Really good experiences in which you feel like you can collaborate, you can advocate for the artist, you can suggest how to modify the action so it fits camera movement, et cetera, versus situations in which either the actor doesn't want you there or the director is kind of handcuffed to have an intimacy coordinator on set and you feel like you're the person that frustration is being taken out on. So yeah, it kind of runs from hot and cold.
I'll be honest. It’s not because people don't have good intentions, but I think there's either biases around what the role is. Someone might have had a really bad experience with a practitioner and then they're like, hell no, I don't want them anywhere close to me or my set.
Or I think I've also met feedback that is like, you're here but don't take too much time. And it's like, wow, okay. I think the minute that you put another cog in the wheel, then production suddenly realises that okay, there's another step in the process in order to achieve this. And we have to account for that time or for that process within the ongoing way of how the production is structured. If you haven't considered that, and it's a last-minute thing, then yeah, that process suddenly feels a bit alien.
Matthew Walsh
So what impact does that have on your role in so much as the relationship between yourself, the actors, the directors and maybe the producers. Do you have to find a way to appease everyone and go between all three different departments?
Yarit Dor
Sometimes and sometimes no, because I would say part of the role is the biggest goal is that we need to get what we need. So we need to achieve the scene. The question is, how do we achieve it in a way that respects the vision of the performers and the director as much as possible?
Because sometimes those visions don't align. And sometimes the boundaries of a performer might be because they're uncomfortable with their body, or might be because they've done loads of that action before and they don't want to be seen doing that action again. It might be because they don't support that kind of style of intimacy as a person with their values. So they're connecting their boundaries around with the vision, actually. They're like putting those two together. So then it makes it really hard for the director that casted someone that they thought, we're in the same head space, to suddenly realise, okay, there is a bit of a difference in opinions here.
And so the intimacy coordinator is kind of the person that runs between the two and sees, okay, this is what you want to do. This is what you want to do. How, how can we kind of find the middle ground? But that middle ground at the end of the day needs to serve the wider project and the wider vision of the project, which means yes, it does need to kind of fold into the general vision that the director and the producers had in the beginning.
The intimacy can't suddenly look like a completely different movie, you know? But it's the intimacy coordinator kind of thinks, okay, what's the alternatives? And sometimes that alternative is shooting it in different ways, using the camera crew and the cinematographer to offer us other artistic means of getting the material. Sitting the performer down and really understanding what is the boundary and all of its facets.
So if someone says, I don't want to show the back of my buttocks, it's really important to understand is that a whole no? So no buttocks at all? Or in a wide shot with like a panning movement. So we're not still, how would you feel about that? Is it about the issue with lingering shots? Is it the issue in like a cowboy or a medium? Is it an issue that like no close ups on my pelvis at all? Like getting yourself and them to understand, okay, we have this boundary. Let's give more information about this. Let's sit down and be curious. Let's dig deep into this boundary. Because the more information we have, that information translates to artistic ability.
They might go, actually no, if it's a wide and my character immediately gets out of the duvet, gets up and goes out of shot, I'm okay with that. Or they might say, I'm okay to shoot that, but I would like to watch it back and see that I'm happy. So when you get these kinds of options and restrictions, around the boundary, you can go back to the director and say, okay, this is what's come back from the artist. What do we think we can do in order to incorporate these? Because I promise you, like 90 % of the time, you can incorporate that. It's not something that is completely out of the ordinary. And without compromising the artistic vision, right? You can do it without compromising too much.
That is the challenge because where it gets personal and difficult is where the vision is different. When the director says, I need it to look like this and the artist says, I don't want it to look like that. And then you're like, okay, so the boundary around here is actually visually how they want it to look and the story that they each want to tell. And maybe actually that needs a three-way conversation because then it's like bringing two artists together and going a bit like, okay, this is a design question, essentially. So let's brainstorm this together and understand because sometimes, you know, people are visual when they speak about it, they can't really see it in this role or negotiation.
But there's also an aspect of the role that you need to be willing to be the bad guy.
Carley Bowman
Sounds like you need a degree in mediation sometimes.
Yarit Dor
I’ve had instances in the past in which a director has said, can we remove or shorten their modesty garment? Can we tape it slightly different? And I'm like, no, no we can't. If you see the modesty garment, it's covering what they said that you cannot shoot.
So we have to be more artistic with our capabilities of how we shoot this and how we coach them of how to move on the bed. And in the edit, you will have to cut around that modesty garment. There is no way around that. If they said that you can't, like they're not willing to show the intergluteal cleft, which is the butt crack, the sections of the butt cheeks next to it, which means like they have a kind of a brief underwear in the back, then that, my love, stays there because that's the area that we can't capture.
Matthew Walsh
Another aspect when you say you're going to have to come up with an artistic way or creative way to find these solutions, I suppose, does that mean you're working in collaboration a lot of the time with some of the other departments like the lighting or cameras and things like that?
Yarit Dor
Yeah, definitely. The biggest department that we're close to is a costume department.
So it depends really on how the individual intimacy coordinator likes to work and how the costume department wants to work with them. But with some productions, you might find that the intimacy coordinator, after having conversations with the director, with each actor, understands, okay, this is the range of modesty that we will need for this scene because I know now which actions we might be doing. And then they communicate that to the costume department, the costume department buys those things. Whereas some costume departments are like, you know what, this is a period drama. I've got so many courses and amazing dresses to do. I do not have time to deal with skin tone fabric that is covering genitals. I just need to think sequins.
You know what you want, you go buy it and we'll sort out how the production reimburses it. And I get it. Like it makes a lot of sense. Their hours are intense, the costume department. On set, we also work with them to adjust the modesty garments, to cover up actors.
Sometimes if you only have two costume standbys, and let's say there are three performers and one costume standby has to help for two performers, sometimes you find yourself, if the performer is okay, that you give them the robe as well so all three are covered at the same time rather than one having to wait. So, you know, there's a bit of a sense of back and forth with the costume department.
I've also had a costume standby, for example, that came to me and said, Yarit, I feel slightly uneasy dealing with this particular performer's modesty garments. I see them every day. We have a good relationship, but I don't want to deal with anything close to their genitals. So I was like, okay, because it needs to be in the consent of the costume standby as well, what they're willing to do within their job. So I came to the performer and I said, hey, how would you feel if I explained to you how this is attached?
I step out of the trailer, you try and attach it by yourself. If there's any assistance that you require, how would you feel if I helped you? Because you don't see me every day. We don't have the same kind of, you know, relationship. Because the costume standby within their role, they don't necessarily have to do this. So the performer said yes, and that's what we did. I think I helped them maybe once or twice until they really understood their modesty garments.
And then after that, they put it on like a pro. Like they didn't need any help whatsoever.
So sometimes that aspect is part of our job, which means that also as an intimacy coordinator, you need to ask yourself, what am I comfortable to do? Because sometimes you might not be comfortable to assist. I think it's important to remember as well that the role isn't there purely for the actors, it's there for the crew as well, and moments like this.
Matthew Walsh
On similar lines, do you think there's any aspects of the role that are slightly misunderstood in the public mind about the role of intimacy coordinator?
Yarit Dor
Yes, I think the biggest one is that we do the romance. I wish I could do all of the romance.I would say 70 % of your job as the intimacy coordinator is to be there to support nudity in simulated sex scenes. The producer obviously needs to prioritise the budget towards the scenes that have the higher risk, physically and mentally. It's not to say that a performer can't be triggered just from a physical hand on a shoulder, you know? We don't know what will trigger someone. But when production is doing its breakdowns, it will completely prioritise nudity and simulated sex scenes as the scenes that require an intimacy coordinator to be present on set.
That will always continue, because it's also a budgetary question. Which means that on certain shows, kissing scenes, physical touch-based scenes, family intimacy scenes, you might not have an intimacy coordinator unless the performers ask for it or their agent asks for it or it's a show that the director feels like I definitely want someone here so that if I'm not getting the level of attraction, if I'm not getting the level of romance that I want to see, if I don't feel like we're catching chemistry between the characters, then I have someone that can help give movement suggestions, help give thoughts around breath about physical storytelling. Someone that is almost like a movement coach, but specifically for intimacy moments.
I see more and more productions starting to choose to bring people for passionate kisses or even for familial intimacy - intimacy between parents and children. I've seen more and more examples of that starting to happen, but I would say that's maybe 20%. Most of the time it's going to be the higher risk material.
Carley Bowman
What skills would you say that you need to become a successful intimacy coordinator?
Yarit Dor
The biggest thing to note is you have to have a background in movement and you have to understand how to work with actors because you just don't have time to learn it on the job.
If we have a blocking rehearsal on set, you are lucky if it's 30 minutes. Sometimes that blocking rehearsal is literally five minutes.
Carley Bowman
What's that? Is that when you're working with the actor about the scene and movement and that kind of coaching part of the role?
Yarit Dor
It's mainly, if, for example, if we have a scene with a kiss, we will take all the crew out, make it completely almost like a closed space. We'll bring the director, the first AD. Some actors are happy for the DOP to be in there already. And then the intimacy coordinator. Now the first thing within these rehearsals, also for if the action is nudity or simulated sex, is the director needs to have the time with their actors. Like they need to block the scene, they need to talk through the scene, to agree on the actions, talk about story beats, like first and foremost, that's their time. And as they're doing it, when they're getting to the intimate sections or the intimate actions, it's the intimacy coordinator, almost like a stunt coordinator, would come in, talk through the action.
If the actors want to walk a version of it, even without putting lips to lips, then we would do that. We would talk about the nature of the kiss, the energy of the kiss. What's the story in the kiss? Because there needs to be kind of an artistic understanding of what are we aiming towards, but also a physical understanding. Like, does my character start it? Does your character start it? If it goes against the wall, who gets to the wall first? Is the wall even, you know, reinforced? do we need to think about that, etc. So you kind of get a rough map of the scene.
Within that blocking rehearsal, the major aim is that they know what they're doing, that they're comfortable with what's being asked from them, and that there's a bit of a structure so we can do a crew show. Because every department needs to know what they're setting up to do. Because if they don't, they can't really do their job. And then it's really unfair because they're our team.
So then after that, we open the set, we do a reduced crew show. So we make sure that people from each department are there that can actually have a look at, where can we put lights? What's the action? Where are they going in the space? there's no set there. We need to put a wall, et cetera. And then the actors take a break.
Some productions and some directors will allow an intimacy coordinator and actors to go into a tent or a private room to continue to rehearse. If there's anything that needs to be rehearsed a bit more, whilst the crew is setting up, it's a good time to add a bit more detail or make sure that the discussions are a bit deeper, especially regarding their consent. And then we start shooting.
Now, when we shoot simulated sex and nudity, it's usually a closed set. And I say usually because I have been in instances in which the performers, the producer, the director, the agents are happy for it not to be a closed set because of the necessities of the scene.
Matthew Walsh
Just quickly to touch on what you mean by closed set. How many people does that entail usually? Is that stripped down to the bare minimum people on set?
Yarit Dor
In fundamental practice, yes, we strip it to absolutely the people that are required to see a monitor. Around the artist, so it's almost like a bit of an onion. So you have the space around the artist when they're actually doing the action but also you have the space in which the monitors are. So like the director with their monitor, the script supervisor, producer, and a monitor that sometimes is in a tent, closed tent elsewhere. Where does the intimacy coordinator watch a monitor? Which monitor can they watch? A sound recordist needs their own little monitor on their table because they need to pair lines with the action.
If there are no lines, sometimes they're happy for their monitor to be turned off. So it's something to talk with them and see what that department needs.
Carley Bowman
I guess it's voicing that at every level, isn't it? And getting the consent and asking the questions and doing that negotiating where you need to as well. So it's keeping that conversation going about what people, everyone on all sides are comfortable with.
Yarit Dor
Well, they're your team. And everyone's trying to achieve the same thing at the end of the day. And I would be really annoyed if some decision was made and I wasn't even told any information about that. And what's helpful of an intimacy coordinator being there is that that responsibility doesn't have to be solely on the AD team, which is already running around trying to do their job anyway. So it's almost like a helping hand for the AD team. I'll go chat to the art department. Do you know what I mean? And the first AD can just focus on the area that they need to and the intimacy coordinator can have a bit of a stroll around to check that monitors that were approved are on and monitors that weren't approved are off and whether people are in tents or et cetera. Do you know what I mean?
That responsibility doesn't suddenly have to lie on one person or a group of, you know, two floor ADs and a first AD that are dealing with so many other things.
Matthew Walsh
I find it really interesting how we've already, you mentioned how the Me Too movement had a huge impact on this kind of area within production and these wider conversations obviously filter through to production spaces. I was wondering if you could just speak briefly about what kind of impact the role of intimacy coordinator and all these safeguarding practices that are coming into play. Do you feel they make the work in production spaces more comfortable for those both in front and behind the camera?
Yarit Dor
I think it's definitely not down to intimacy coordination solely. I do feel like the web of safeguarding has expanded through productions making sure that anyone stepping on set has to go through a sexual harassment awareness course. There was a studio that literally you couldn't step on their set unless you did their 30-minute online one and showed like a little almost QR code that you passed it. Obviously, ScreenSkills has theirs, which is an amazing achievement because it's free.
Raising awareness around that has been huge. I think it's the Me Too movement, Black Lives Matter movement, people talking about issues surrounding mental health. More and more actors are even discussing stage fright in theatre now, as well as difficulties from a mental health perspective that they've had on set.
Surveys that the Film and TV Charity are doing have been huge. So it's almost, feels like, yes, the Me Too gave a little push and the other effects that we've had in the last couple of years with Black Lives Matter, with COVID coming in and sudden awareness of mental health and loads of research around it has really pushed a new view of creating almost like a spider web for safeguarding. From well-being practitioners, from having productions hire external counselling services that crew and cast can go to anonymously, having an awareness of having chaperones more in the discussions than I even know that the chaperone branch is having around that.
But I would say intimacy coordinators really are only mental health first aiders. They're not a therapist. And part of that reason is because we, in our scene, might be the thing that triggers a performer. So therefore, we cannot be the person giving them therapeutic assistance.
Carley Bowman
You could recognise the signs when someone is triggered and then know kind of what to do about it.
Yarit Dor
Yeah, and it's better that it's someone that is not directly associated with the show because they need a safe space and a safe person to talk to and that can't be someone that they see every couple of weeks on set, which might have been the environment that they were triggered.
So I definitely feel a massive shift in the awareness on set, the awareness of crew, the awareness that actors have. My God, the awareness of producers. I mean, there's been a huge change in the employer understanding what are the different ways that I can offer things. I can't force people to use them, but at least I can offer. That hasn't been there… when I started working in this industry in 2019, that wasn't there.
Carley Bowman
And if you were to give some advice, Yarit, to somebody who wanted to move into this role, whether they're either already in the industry or not in the industry or early in their career, what would you say to them? What are the qualities that you think somebody that makes a good intimacy coordinator has and what kind of skills do they need to to develop?
Yarit Dor
Well, first of all, they have to have a movement background and understand how to instruct and coach movement fast when a performer needs it. Because we just know time is money on set. It's a real thing. And obviously the performer will first need to get the notes from the director which leaves you as a practitioner may be able to give them a few notes here and there when the time is right.
So it's kind of like, what is the movement-based note that would be the most useful and understandable to them? If I say like, find your axis and sit on your sit bones and lift up, some actors will just look at me going like, what? What do want me to do? I don't have time for this woman. So it's how can you help them as quickly as possible with something that also supports the note that they've been given by the director. So you're not contradicting or you're not confusing them, et cetera. So I would say movement knowledge, anatomy knowledge, so you can see on the monitor what's not working.
Knowledge of working with actors and what actors need and the different types of actors. Some actors are very brainy and their entry point is kind of talking through it deeply, like intensely versus some actors are visual. They like metaphors. I've had a director come to me saying this kiss, it just doesn't work.
You know, I've given them a note, but it's not working. So we chatted a bit, me and the director, about the kiss. And then I came to the performer because I knew that they like metaphors, and that's their way into something. So I said to them, let's explore this kiss, like a multitude of waves. And in my head, I thought to myself, wow, that sounds really hippie-dippie right now. But let's flow with it. Let's see if it lands. Let's see if it lands. And suddenly I was like, bang, that was it. That was the shot. And the director looked at me and said, what did you tell them? And I was like, waves? The director was like, really? I was like, yes.
Carley Bowman
Just a bit of magic there for you! Don’t worry!
Yarit Dor
But it's, it's about unlocking them. Because performers know how to perform. You want them to feel confident and not in their head about what they're doing. But it's almost like, what is the note I can support your movement that then will just unlock something for you to move is more of the question.
Skills of tuning yourself into the type of person you're working with. How do they work? How are they stressed? Like seeing their good day and bad day is really important. It has to be someone that is self-sufficient and knows how to manage their time well. Because sometimes on this job, you will get a job way ahead and you can prep. It's like, my God, I can do mood boards and give images to the director and we can sit down and chat versus sometimes, you just get to go from one day to the next into a job that you don't know anyone. There's no time or ability to chat to the cast. There's no time or ability to chat to the director. And you show up and you're like, hi, what do you need? And it's a bit like, okay, we're just gonna swim. So it's kind of being able to really be good in time management, but also priorities. What's my priority now that I'm here last minute? What's the priority?
Communication skills is huge. All of that communicating and negotiating and translating that you have to do. my God. I've recently had an actor request something. I went to request it on their behalf from the producer because the actor said, can you go and check if I can get this? And the producer took it very personal, which I understand because the request from a time perspective was so impossible. But I thought to myself, I can't go back to the actor saying exactly what the producer said to me because obviously they need to work together. So with the producer, I was like, I totally understand, can we somehow meet halfway here? What is possible? What is not possible? So then I go back to the performer and just be realistic with them. This is what the production can offer you right now to support with this. And this is what they can't for these reasons.
I have to say when I started this role, I had to take a lot of courses in communication, negotiation, mediation skills. Understanding stress and conflict and how to turn conflict into a creative energy rather than getting too stuck in trying to get two people to work together well. It's like that's it you don't work together well but it doesn't mean that we can't work together okay. I would say that is a huge one and I don't think you ever stop learning about communication really.
Obviously apart from that, there's a lot of courses and skills regarding safeties. So anything from specific intimacy, choreography safeties, equipment that we use, positions. How do we cheat stuff for camera, obstacles. Know, actors that are happy to work with each other, even if the camera is just doing a close up on one actor, they still want to work with each other in the intimate action versus I've had actors that they don't get along. So the minute that their character is out of view, they don't want to do the physical action with the other actor. And suddenly the actor has to imply that they're having sex by themselves. So, know, tricks regarding intimacy choreography in general.
So I would say that there's quite a lot of stuff to kind of sink your teeth in to this role. What I will say to people that are interested in pursuing this, don't pursue it for the celebrity status because I think that's a bad thing that came out of the media, if I'm honest. Intimacy coordination is a collaborative job. The intimacy scenes are not down to the intimacy coordinator.
They're down to the director, the actors, the other departments. Like every single department contributed to achieving that action. You don't hire an intimacy coordinator because they've done this series that you love. It's not connected to them. It's connected to the team that created that scene.
There's a certain level of resilience that you need. And then last thing, because most of the role is nudity and simulated sex, a person needs to want to work on those type of scenes. If you're thinking of changing your job and becoming an intimacy coordinator because you love the romance and period drama, well, you might not get a chance to actually be there to support a lot of those romance scenes, because the production will prioritise you for nudity and simulated sex.
And I've had directors that when it comes to nudity and simulated sex, they don't want to do anything apart from hand you a few notes and you pass those notes to the actor. And suddenly you feel like, my God, everything is on my shoulders here. Need to help the actors with their anxieties about their body and what they want to show or not want to show. A director that feels like uncomfortable with these scenes and wishes that they would finish.
And then you are the one that needs to feel okay watching nude bodies pretend to have sex again and again for, you know, minimum three hours and to look at the monitor again and again and think, okay, what's working? What's not working? What's missing? Do we have enough material for them? How are the actors doing?
Carley Bowman
So in short, just quite a few skills then. Communication, negotiation, resilience.
It's been really amazing to hear more about this role. It's not something that I'm personally particularly familiar with and how it works. I don't know about you, Matthew?
Matthew Walsh
I think this has been really interesting. Really good insight to see what skills are needed and how it's translated on a working set. Thank you so much, for joining us. Really appreciate your time.
Yarit Dor
No problem. Thank you. I really appreciate your time, your interest and yeah, wanting to chat with me.
Matthew Walsh
Good luck with whatever you're doing next. Thank you. Thank you very much.
DEMYSTIFYING THE SCREENSKILLS DREAMBIG! PROGRAMME
Carley Bowman
Next up, we hear more about the DreamBig! programme.
Sarah Joyce
I'm Sarah Joyce. the head of Unscripted and Children's TV at ScreenSkills. DreamBig! is a new entrant training programme specifically for people who have a keen interest in working in children's TV. So DreamBig! was first developed in consultation with the industry-led council who oversee the Children's TV Skills Fund.
As a group, they really believed it was critical to support opportunities for people who want to work in children's TV but don't really know how to make that happen. So with the help of thinkBIGGER! who run the training programme for us, those initial discussions led to DreamBig!.
So as part of the programme, candidates can experience a range of things. Primarily a three to six month paid placement with a production company making content for children. And these placements are part funded by the host company, which is really important, and also part funded by the Children's TV Skills Fund.
Shelley Gill
Hi, I'm Shelley Gill and I'm a talent manager working on DreamBig! in Children's TV. So I joined when we were recruiting companies to take part in the programme and we've had such an incredible response so that as well as live action placements, we've also been able to have animation join us this year and combining the two funds together.
I think this year has been the biggest number of placements. We hosted 13 placements across live action animation. And we've had an amazing reaction from the companies and the trainees have had an incredible experience so far.
Sarah Joyce
When thinkBIGGER! invited companies to express an interest in taking part in DreamBig! Three, they received several requests from animation companies. And based on this level of interest, the Animation Sills Fund agreed to part fund a number of animation placements this year.
Shelley Gill
So before they start their host companies, they get an incredible whirlwind experience of a TV bootcamp where they learn everything from the roles in each of the departments, how they work, the role of a production assistant and a coordinator, which were the roles that are on a scheme this year. And then they had a plethora of different training from understanding the etiquette in an office. Some of them come from backgrounds where they've never worked in an office. It's understanding the etiquette and how to get in and get on and nail those really important first impressions.
Jazmyn Barlow
Hi, I'm Jazmyn and my placement was at Terrific Television in Maidstone. I was actually signed up to the ScreenSkills newsletters, so I was having a look at all of the training courses and everything that you had available and it just so happened it fell in my inbox one day and I had a look and I was like, the children's TV programme sounds like something I really want to do because I had qualifications in both film and TV and childcare at the same time so I thought I might as merge everything together.
Shelley Gill
The programme's been great at preparing them for landing into TV, getting in and getting on. TV's a really interesting space where we're a people industry and so much of being successful in this career is how well you can connect with people and tell great stories and even as production assistants and coordinators, they're learning the arts of relationship building, of solving problems for people before they arise.
So the programme's been really good at giving them the insight, the knowledge, the tips, and giving them a framework and rail guards at which they're armed with knowledge before they go into their placement so they are ready to tackle any baptism of fire that's thrown their way.
Brandon Zapata Calderon
My name is Brandon Zapata Calderon and I've been at Magic Light Pictures for the past six months. It has always been animation that I've wanted to work in. I studied animation and then when I realised that Magic Light was part of the scheme, I was like, yes, I really want to do this right now. I love the work. Everything that they've done is amazing. And now that I've managed to get the experience from them, I love it. It is such an amazing company and I love it completely.
The training was really, really helpful. Again, I didn't realise that being part of production was an option. I knew about animation and being an animator and that side of it, but never production. I didn't realise there was a completely separate thing. And the training completely blew my mind because it went into so much detail, in so many skills that we were taught. It really, really, really helped a lot. And it prepared me really well for when we started the placement because I already felt like I already knew kind of what I was doing.
Sarah Joyce
Some of that training also focuses on equipping them with the skills they need to build their career in the industry, such as managing your money as a freelancer, networking or writing a great CV.
Holly Kilvington
Hi, I'm Holly Kilvington and I had my placement at BBC Kids and Family on Blue Peter.
So three days before we went off, we had some really intense training to get us ready. And I found it really helpful because it was the stuff that no one really tells you. Like ask questions, your first introduction to people, the confidence aspect. And it really set you up to go straight into that company.
Sarah Joyce
The programme helps them begin their screen journeys by providing a place to learn and grow in a company where it's okay to ask questions and to not be expected to know it all right from the beginning. S
Holly Kilvington
So things like CV, networking. But overall they were really supportive and it was the mentoring that went throughout the programme that was the most helpful. You always knew that there was someone at the end of the phone if you were panicked about something or you needed some advice on how to speak to your boss.
Sarah Joyce
It's an opportunity for the candidates to soak up every bit of knowledge they can in a real working environment and on top of that they have fantastic support throughout from thinkBIGGER! as do the host companies. And finally, the candidates also have each other to connect with as they start their careers.
Shelley Gill
I think there's a lot of young talent that have all the raw ingredients, the skills to get in, but actually opening that door for them is the biggest impact that we can make for them. Connecting them to key people in the industry that can help grow them. They get in, they get on, we help them grow, we connect them to the biggest studios in the UK across live action and animation. We were really lucky to have Aardman on animation and Magic Light Pictures and on the live action side, BBC Studios. They are such, you know, big titans in the industry.
Sarah Joyce
DreamBig! has developed year on year. We had great feedback from companies on the quality of the candidates. One company, for example, even took on two people after the interviews, but companies also asked us for longer placements and that's how we've developed the programme year-on-year. So we also know that this programme opens doors for people who might otherwise never have got the chance.
Children's TV is a small part of the TV landscape, so it's really good for people to be flexible about working in companies, making other content too. But of course, I hope that the DreamBig! alumni have the chance to make children's live action and animated content for a long time.
Brandon Zapata Calderon
I come from a South American background and from Ecuador, and I had no vision that one day I would be able to be where I am right now and experience the things that I've been able to experience through the scheme and being in the placements and everything like that.
I've been extended a little bit longer. So I'm going to be continuing for the next few months working with Magic Light. I'm going to get as much information as I can and as much experience, as many connections as can. And I'm definitely going to be staying in the production industry. I would like to go further up and one day become a coordinator and then just see where that takes me.
Sarah Joyce
For some, they started off with three month placements and those have been extended. Others have had contracts offered to them at the end of the training programme and a couple have even been offered permanent jobs within the host companies. Alumni of the programme come back each year to talk about the impact of DreamBig! on their careers.
Jazmyn Barlow
We had a location shoot with lots of children. So there was a little bit where children got to come in and do an art make and they were all dancing and it was really fun to see the chaperones and have the children and families in and I got to give them a little goody bag at the end of every day. It always made my day when they were so excited to go home with the goody bag and they felt really cool for being on the set and just making them feel like they were really special on that day was a real highlight.
Holly Kilvington
I mean my CV is ready, ready and raring [laughter].
Brandon Zapata Calderon
This is just the beginning, you will see my name in a film hopefully in the next couple of years.
OUTRO
Carley Bowman
So thanks very much to all of our guests for giving their time for this episode and if you want to find out a bit more about that DreamBig! programme and the Children's TV Skills Fund and the Animation Skills Fund and all the other stuff that they support then do go to the ScreenSkills website. And Matthew, there's some other stuff that we should tell people about that we're publishing alongside this episode.
Matthew Walsh
That’s right. If you wanted to find out a bit more about some of those candidates who took part in DreamBig!, there are a series of case studies on the ScreenSkills website which will be also flagged in our newsletter so do sign up for that if you want to read more about their experience on the programme. And we'll also have a feature from Yarit Dor who you heard earlier in the podcast speaking about the skills that you need and can really take forward to develop a career as an intimacy coordinator. So do keep an eye out for that on the ScreenSkills website. And if you wanted to find out more about Yarit Dor, her work, and what she's up to next, then she has her own website, which is yaritdor.com.
Carley Bowman
That's great, yep. And if you want to get in touch with us, as ever, you can message us at podcast@screenskills.com.
Matthew Walsh
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
Carley Bowman
See you next time.
CREDITS
Carley Bowman
This has been a Screen Skills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carley Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock and marketing by Natalie Tandoh. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
In episode six of the ScreenSkills podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, we take a closer look at one of the latest - and most attention-grabbing - roles in the screen industry and explore the training programme providing candidates with a first taste of children's TV.
We speak to intimacy coordinator Yarit Dor about her journey from choreography to becoming the West End's first ever intimacy director and her work across stage and screen for productions like Rivals, Knives Out, Peaky Blinders and Wicked. She explains how the role is often misunderstood, why collaboration is so important and what skills are needed to succeed in the role.
We then cover all things DreamBIG!, the new entrant initiative for those looking to start a career in live action and animated children's TV. Sarah Joyce, ScreenSkills Head of Children's TV, gives us an overview of the programme alongside Shelley Gill from training provider thinkBIGGER. We also hear from some of those who've just completed their training about their time on the programme and their production placements.
Discover more
Yarit Dor's skills for an intimacy coordinator
Discover more
Find out more about DreamBIG!
Find out more
Discover more opportunities in children's TV