The third episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Intro
Welcome to the ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh. And I'm Carly Bowman. And we're your hosts from Screen Skills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them. Each episode, we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work.
We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown all things production, and we hear from those making the content you love.
Host, Carley Bowman
Welcome to episode three of the ScreenSkills podcast. We're talking about sustainability or, as one of our guests described it, greening the screen. There's a lot to talk about in this episode, Matthew, right?
Host, Matthew Walsh
There is, yeah. Obviously, it’s a huge topic and it's one that's become an increasingly present consideration when it comes to production spaces across the UK. So, really good to hear from all different sides of the industry about what change is being made, how easy it is to adapt and the impact that they're having on reducing the carbon footprint.
Carley Bowman
Yeah, and there's a really good case study as well. We talked to Zen Barry from the BBC and Barrington Paul Robinson, who produced the second series of The Responder. And they tell us about the measures they put in place on set and how Barrington really kind of drove that forward. But there was still some resistance in some places. And we hear about Barrington's beef breakdown. So you've got to listen out for that.
Matthew Walsh
We also caught up with April Sotomayor from BAFTA Albert, who are the organization's sustainability arm and really take the lead sometimes on advising what changes can be made and how to put them in place on productions.
Carley Bowman
Yeah, and there's exactly that. And we're demystifying the role of sustainability coordinator as well. And there's lots of practical tips and we'll point you towards some toolkits and resources that you can go to at the end of the episode. So do keep listening. And also please, please don't be lulled by Matthew's voice. Barrington said he felt drunk on his voice. Let's have a listen now.
In conversation with Zen Barry and Barrington Paul Robinson
Matthew Walsh
What does sustainability in the screen industries look like exactly? In our first conversation, we explored just that as we spoke to the team behind the BBC drama, The Responder, about the actions they took to reduce the show's carbon footprint. We were joined by producer Barrington Paul Robinson and sustainability production manager at the BBC, Zen Barry, to discuss how they put the issue at the centre of production when it came to filming the second series of the BAFTA nominated drama. Their work and the practices they adopted led to a 64% reduction in carbon footprint.
We spoke to them about why and how these decisions were made and what further improvements they hope to see in the industry.
Zen Barry
So, hi guys, I'm Zen Barry and I lead on decarbonisation for the BBC. So, I work in the public service side, so the broadcaster side of the BBC. And I mainly support decarbonisation around the indie commissions, and I've been with the BBC for just over a year now.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Good afternoon, my name is Barrington Paul Robinson. I'm an ethical producer working across film and high-end TV. I have produced a number of... a number! I've produced some TV shows including The Responder, A Thousand Blows for Disney and A Town Called Malice.
Matthew Walsh
Well, Zen and Barrington, thank you so much for joining us today on the ScreenSkills podcast. Welcome.
Zen Barry
Yeah, brilliant. Thanks for having us.
Matthew Walsh
We're here to discuss sustainability, which is obviously quite a huge topic in itself and especially within the screen industries. So, I wondered if a good place that we could start is just by maybe touching on your journeys with sustainability and screen and how you came to embed it within some of the productions that you've worked on. Maybe Zen starting as a sustainability production manager. How did that come about?
Zen Barry
So yeah, I started with the BBC last September as a sustainability manager for production. But before then I was a project manager for ITV where I was decarbonizing Coronation Street and Emmerdale, believe it or not. Great big shows, big continuing dramas that needed some support getting those numbers down. And then before that, I worked in production for about 15 years. So yeah, that's me.
Matthew Walsh
And Barrington, how about you? You're obviously a producer. So, you've worked on quite a few shows as you touched upon in your intro there. How did you get involved or was it a personal thing of yours to work closely with someone in sustainability like Zen?
Barrington Paul Robinson
So, I've been making short form content for the longest time, over 25 years. My foray into TV has only been over last four or five years. And I think it's... I mean, everybody had a policy, you know, the broadcasters dictate that you do have a policy. They all have policies about how we should adhere to that and obviously there’s (BAFTA) Albert, but I think realistically I was converted on the second series of The Responder by the BBC. So, through Gabby and then through Zen when she came in. So, I call them the green queens and I don't know if they like that or not. But, for me, they were the ones who brought me over to the light side.
Zen Barry
The green side.
Barrington Paul Robinson
The green side, exactly. They brought me over there and I was like, I think sitting in the big chair on the second season, I was a lot more responsible for it. And I had a great team, particularly my lead director who's from Denmark and she was just like, this should just be ingrained. And we kind of embraced that and pushed forward with that. So, I think, you know, in my personal life, I think I like to consider it, but I think the responsibility was real on the second series of The Responder and how we had to, how we could actively make changes to make it better.
Carley Bowman
I'd just like to pick up as well. Zen, you used a phrase which was decarbonisation of a show. Is that right? What does that mean?
Zen Barry
Well, that is a conscious switch that we've made this year at the BBC. And historically, the way that productions have always kind of generated their carbon emissions and obviously footprinted them through Albert. And then they offset their emissions at the very end of the production, which is kind of buying carbon credits to offset the emissions that they've created throughout the production. So, what we're doing now is something called deep decarbonisation of the BBC. And that means to, in simple terms, not create the emissions in the first place.
Carley Bowman
Right.
Zen Barry
And so, we're having conversations right from development, right at the green light stage of a production, which is a relatively new timeframe for sustainability talk to happen. Normally, it was about six weeks out from the shoot, but now it's much further upstream, which is much better because a lot of that carbon is locked in at commissioning. And so, we're having those conversations with the team across the BBC and the production company about how we can eliminate some of those carbon emissions, how we can reduce location power, for example, what things we can do. There’s a lot of really great work happening in that space. And that's been the main one that we've been tackling this year in 2024.
But going forward, the biggie for me is travel and transport. And that kind of equates to around between 50 and 65% of an average footprint for a scripted drama like The Responder. And so, we're really trying to kind of tackle those emissions as well. So, deep decarbonisation is not making the emissions in the first place, which... we all want that, right?
Carley Bowman
Absolutely, absolutely.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah, for me, I think of that. I think the phrase that I think sums up sometimes the lacklustre attitude towards how it has been historically is ‘as best we can’, which means, ‘we'll work it out after’. And I think Zen's exactly right about these conversations. I think for us on The Responder, it came when we did the CommSpec. You know, it was a requirement in there from the BBC, you know, for it to be signed off and greenlit for the production company. And it's at that point, if not before, that you have to have these conversations. So, it becomes a part of the DNA of every production rather than an additional afterthought or something that we have to add onto the budget. It should already be in the initial plan for the budget.
Matthew Walsh
Hmm. It's interesting to hear that these conversations are coming quite so early-on in the stage of the production. So, when it gets to those conversations and how to implement these practices that will reduce the carbon footprint, what does that really entail in terms of practical steps that you use on the production of The Responder?
Barrington Paul Robinson
That's for me. I was so enthralled with your voice and the deepness of it. I was getting a bit hypnotised by it all.
Zen Barry
Relaxing, I love it.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Did you hear that, Zen? I was getting relaxed, like wow, it’s something magical.
Matthew Walsh
We'll edit this bit out, it’s fine.
Barrington Paul Robinson
No, that’s got to stay in. So, the question was about practical steps. I've got drunk on your voice. Practical steps. What practically do we do? Again, I mean, Zen, of course, chime in at any time to correct me. I think that going in, and I'm a relatively new producer, right, in TV. I mean, this is still, you know... when I was doing the short form stuff, it's still equated to that, but this is a big deal. It's a lot of money. It's a bigger unit that you're moving around. Bigger cars, bigger crews. So that's much more emissions. So you've got to be mindful of that from the beginning. I think it's all about, there's two things really. It isn't finite. There is a limited amount of things that you can do. But when you do do them, I think you should do them properly with good intentions and from the beginning.
And the number one for me is local hiring. As Zen said, it's about travel. You know, if you're bringing your crew, your cast from a long way away, you need to really limit that. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes your cast, your lead cast, are in a particular place and you're shooting in a particular place. So that's not always, that's not always possible, but you limit them and then it's also how you travel them. So, we had a ‘trains no planes’ policy. It was very strong. We couldn't always do that. It's quite tricky if you've got international directors but you limit the amount of travel that they're doing once they're on a production. You know, we still have to take their families, etc, and their life into consideration, but you're limiting that and you're trying to package that all in one place. Your crew locally, I mean, that works for a couple of reasons. You know, on The Responder, we had a lot of late nights because the show is predominantly set at night. You don't want your crew, or your cast, anybody to be traveling excessive journeys to get back home. You know, for risk of, if we're doing long enough days, 10, 11-hour days, you start adding another two hours each way, you know, they've got to come back the following day. For me, that's unethical. So, you want to try and cap the travel.
But also, for instance, with locations, you know. If you're shooting in Liverpool, you know, we have location teams in Liverpool. We didn't have one... we didn't use a location manager from Liverpool, but he was on a previous show. You're cutting down the amount of time they have to travel around the city in their vehicles looking for places because they know where these places are. So, there's less of a search because they already know what it is. So, there's little small things that add up to much bigger things. And I think Zen and Gabby broke that down for me really nicely into these bite-sized wins that you could have that really chip away at it. So, the travel is one. Where you put your cast up when you are here... we look for the greenest hotels in Liverpool. We got to the top 10. We weren't using the number one, we were using number three. But the journey from the train station, for instance, negated that big travel bit, so we were still saving. It's about still using common sense and practicality, I think, in order to get it done. But catering is also huge, and I'm sure we'll go into later about the beef scandal, but...
Zen Barry
We’ve got a funny story about beef.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, we’re intrigued. Tell us more about this beef.
Barrington Paul Robinson
So... Wenzel and Gavin were telling me about the whole thing. One of the things that came up was obviously about meat, about the emissions that meat has and obviously I'm a carnivore. But you know, this isn't about my personal thing. This is, well it wasn't, but this is about the production. And we're really quite clear that we're one of those industries, you know... I've worked in various different industries, but we're one of these industries where you get paid to turn up and you also get lunch, which is great. There's not a lot of jobs that offer that. And so, people have still got the option of going out and buying something. So personally, as a production, we decided that we wouldn't have beef because beef is the biggest... Zen, what's the percentages on beef, taking beef off (the menu)?
Zen Barry
Yeah, the emissions are huge around beef. And, you know, I do eat meat still, but it's when it comes to the footprint for the production. All that catering, all that meat sits on the production's footprint, right? So, there's a lot of work happening in this space. And I did it on the soaps when I was at ITV. We managed to compromise with the crew and reduce the red meat that we had on the menu when the production was paying for it and it was part of their footprint. And we managed to speak to the Responder team and they took beef off the menu completely. So, you'd still get, you don't just get lunch, Barrington, you get your breakfast as well. And it's a good breakfast on set.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Exactly. Yeah, very good.
Zen Barry
You get your breakfast. So, we still keep the bacon and the sausages and so on for breakfast.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Not beef ones though.
Zen Barry
Not beef ones.
Carley Bowman
Just take an egg for breakfast.
Zen Barry
Yeah. And then you reduce or take that off the menu for lunch or compromise. Some crews are still not quite ready to let go of that, but you compromise, maybe have that once a week. And we've had like meat-free days on production for a long time, which is actually like a Paul McCartney invention going back about 10 years ago. But now... because you get quite a lot of pushback, being a production person. You get quite a lot of pushback from crew when you do take their choice away, and rightly so. So what we tend to do now is we mention it in the green memo, which is part of the process in prep from (BAFTA) Albert. We say that we're going to reduce our carbon emissions in catering, and then we try and reduce our compromise with the caterers and reduce that red meat where we can, where we think it's possible, so that we don't upset the crew but we keep the emissions as low as we can.
Barrington Paul Robinson
I think in terms of upsetting the crew, I mean, we didn't go for compromise because I think we came into it later than I wanted to. And so, when we heard about the numbers, how much getting rid of beef reduced it, we were just like, yeah, beef's gone. We made that decision very early. And we also got the lead again from Zen about not calling it Meat-Free Friday, but calling it Fish Friday because everybody's going to be like, you're taking something from us.
Carley Bowman
Putting a positive spin on it.
Barrington Paul Robinson
And we were like, we're not taking anything. This is just what we're providing. And I think a lot of it is about culture, or an attitude change towards it. Most of crews are like, they get it. And I think the mistake I made to be fair, and I always tell this story, is I've got a friendly... one of my friends off the crews – HoD – and I think he said to me, he was upset that they weren't consulted as HoDs, but because I thought he was coming to it later, I just made the decision about beef. So going forward, what I’ll always do is I'll always have my HoDs in, and when we're talking about the rest of the show, I'll explain to everyone why we are not going to be doing beef and why would we reduce meat. Just so they feel included. And then they get an opportunity to filter that down to the rest of their team and so there's no, why are you taking stuff from us? There's none of that kickback.
What did happen though when we reduced the beef, I got into one of the production trucks on set and they had cut sandwiches in the afternoon. And I was going through, ooh, a bit of prawn and ooh, what's that ham, ooh, a little cheese. I was like, what's that? They were like, I think it's just ham. I said, no, that's ham. What's that? They said, I think it's beef. Well, it can't be beef, can it? Because we're beef-free. And I went and talked to the caterers and apparently there was a misunderstanding and... I don't know. From the crewmates, it was called Barrington's beef breakdown or barney or something with alliteration.
Zen Barry
We had it on the Whatsapps.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah, they were all going, thought it was hilarious. But I was serious. If you undertake it and you sign off on it, then it's got to be policed. And it was genuine. I mean, unless there was a black market for beef going around my production, I know we weren’t paying for it.
Matthew Walsh
Just mystery beef on set.
Barrington Paul Robinson
In protest, some of the crew on Fridays... there were certain members of the team. They'd have fish all week, Monday to Thursday, then Friday in a revolt they'd get beef burgers for their team. Like, yeah, great, well done, it's not our money. But that's a really strong one for me. That, travel, hotels. But really, it's about trying to convert the attitudes and the culture. And I think if you instill that from the off and go, like, this is what we're doing. And obviously it's not just the catering in terms of what we eat, but it's also how we eat. And we use plastics and all that sort of stuff. And I think we spoke about this before, Zen, but I'm really keen to start giving out crew gifts before the end. You know, those crew gifts thing that we have where they all give out gifts. I think as a production we should start... and here's one I prepared earlier. This is one, I think it’s from Chili's. So, it's like a cutlery set.
Zen Barry
Oh, nice.
Matthew Walsh
Is this one of the production set gifts or is this just a- ?
Barrington Paul Robinson
No, it's not but I think going forward that's what I'd like to do in my productions. And there's a straw there as well. And there's a cleaner for the straw. I think this is about 20 quid. I looked online the other day you can get them for about a tenner. And they're metal so they're reusable and I think instead of getting everybody a t-shirt or a fleece which is customary – sorry I'm making noise on the sound. Instead of doing that, I think we do it the other way. You know, so if they haven't got a cup or a flask from a previous thing which we would encourage because we don't want to create more for the sake of it, do we Zen?
Zen Barry
No.
Barrington Paul Robinson
I think the cutlery is really a thing so you're not ending up with bamboo even though they say it's reusable, baskets everywhere... the crew have got all their own cutlery. It goes in the car, it goes in the bag, they're not snapping them, they're not breaking them, they're not going for extras. And I think for 20 quid, or if you buy them in bulk, you'll probably get them cheaper, that is the best money spent for me. So that ripples onto other productions, and other productions, and so whatever they do, it's not something you'd replace.
Carley Bowman
And again, it takes that culture onto the next production as well. Because people will say, that's quite cool. What have you got there? You know, so it's kind of making that change.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah. And they know, I think they know. And listen, we get paid well. In this game, 20 quid for a set of cutlery that you're to use for the entire, you know, your life in the game isn't any spend at all. So, I'm trying to encourage that. I mean, I think you start engraving the name of the production on it and then you start getting a bit more expensive. But we did it first.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah. This is the soft launch for Barrington's new cutlery range.
Carley Bowman
It should say Barrington's beef breakdown on there somewhere.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah.
Carley Bowman
You've both mentioned BAFTA Albert and there are other kind of organisations that can help support their sustainable film and others. How important and what level of support is there out there for productions to really make this kind of change?
Zen Barry
For me, BAFTA Albert are doing a huge amount of work at the moment to try and transition the industry. So, the way that it's been done in the past is one of the members of the production team has done the footprinting. It tends to be a production coordinator or a production secretary. And then that is submitted to Albert and they have some auditors with Albert that verify and check the data. So, we're trying to transition to something called corporate reporting. And this is in the public domain so this is fine for me to talk about. And there's a lot of thinking being done around that space at the moment.
So, they're working really hard to try and solve this problem, not just for the BBC, but for the whole of the industry. So I feel for them in that respect. But as far as support for productions, we have seen a huge amount of sustainability coordinators and consultancies start up in the last kind of two years. I know you've mentioned Sustainable Film there. We've got the Jazeera who we work with quite closely. We've got Neptune as well, amongst others in the UK. And so, we're very fortunate in that respect that we've got some real experts on the ground.
But for me, and this is a role I've been thinking about quite a lot recently – I feel, having some scripted experience, that a green manager would be a really, really good fit for scripted content. And that role would be someone who has some senior level buy-in, so kind of on that production management level, HoD level, would have experience and could bring to the party kind of the power planning side of the role. So when we are transitioning away from fossil fuels on location, we can bring in hybrid generators, bring in HVO and they have some experience around planning that power. And as someone who understands locations, someone who understands production and has an overarching understanding of Albert, the footprinting tool, maybe doesn't do the footprinting themselves but kind of focuses more on the decarbonisation of the production. And so, I feel that that could be a role that might develop. We've got, you know, various training schemes are all talking about this in Albert and in the BFI and so on. They're all talking about how we upscale for the future. In Covid, we found Covid coordinators in a very short amount of time, right?
Carley Bowman
Yeah.
Zen Barry
When I was working on Emmerdale and it was Covid, within two months I think, we had Covid coordinators who were second ADs re-skilled and sorted out the set so that we could all still work. We could all shoot these really awkward kissing scenes with perspex in the middle of two people and two metres between each other with a big cane. And all of that was happening so that we could still continue shooting. So, I know that the industry can when they're faced with an urgency and for me, climate emergency should be treated like Covid because we are in that state of emergency right now. And so, we're trying to work out all of these solutions and how we can support productions. But right now, productions aren't supported on the ground, embedded in the way that they need to be to be able to then transition to these cleaner ways of working. So that's what I think we're missing. And obviously there's a lot of debate around that.
Barrington Paul Robinson
I don't know how we missed it when I was talking about it, but fuel was obviously a massive, massive one.
Carley Bowman
Yes.
Barrington Paul Robinson
We went from using diesel generators to using HVO as suggested. And again, I think we could have brought it in quicker. I think even pushing from that, because it's like, would you agree, Zen, it's like an interim option, the HVO, isn't it?
Zen Barry
HVO is just transitional fuel.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah, so what we're looking at doing, I think we're doing it in Liverpool. It’s about electrifying some of these main sites that we know are repeating locations that people go to. So you're not having to spend overnight with your diesel generator, making so much noise for starters, and inhibiting the shoots and the soundbases, but you know, considering that green stuff.
We're really trialling that in Liverpool and moving towards that where the sites are electrified. So when you come to Liverpool – it's not just going to be us, hopefully, but we're doing it here – you know what sites you can get to, you know the green states of the sites you're going to and hopefully try and electrify the city as much as we can so people can come along and plug in and go like that. So it cures all those. That also brings that down as well. So that's what we're looking forward to doing.
Matthew Walsh
And you mentioned both-
Carley Bowman
And on The Responder-
Matthew Walsh
You go, Carley.
Carley Bowman
No, I was just going to ask what the kind of... How do you measure the outcome and what was the outcome on Responder? Yeah, exactly that. How do you do that? How do you know the impact that you're making?
Zen Barry
Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So, I've got some figures here that we can share with you guys about the reductions on The Responder. And this went in the BBC's annual report earlier this year. So, we managed to reduce the carbon emissions from series one to series two by 69%. And that was mainly due to HVO fuel which, as Barrington said quite rightly, is a drop in fuel. It's a transitional fuel and it's one that you can put in a diesel engine and then you can put diesel back in it and then you can put HVO back in it. So you can use it in your production vehicles. You can use it in your camera vans, your lighting vans, all of that. And so, we're trying to not only get the generators on HVO as a transitional stage this year, we're also trying to get some of the production vehicles on HVO as well. The no beef menu, we've heard about the no beef. Don't mention the beef.
And also a big one for The Responder series one was that the data quality for series two was really looked at and examined, from not only from production's point of view, but I also checked the footprints as well, as well as Albert auditing the carbon action plan evidence. And so, the data quality really improved and obviously we made some measures that we took on in prep to reduce the fuel usage on location, reduce travel by using local crew and so on, as Barrington spoke about.
Carley Bowman
So, 75% target next time Barrington, right?
Barrington Paul Robinson
I was upset, as Zen will tell you. I was upset. I was like, if we'd have started earlier with earnest and we got complete buy-in. And I mean, I'm really strong about it. Every meeting I have about the next productions I'm going to do, I don't lead with it, but it's probably in the top three of stuff that I talk about. Because it's really important that it goes into the DNA of the production company that's doing it and all the HoDs that come on board. The actors, the whole lot. I mean, yeah, the whole lot of it for me has to be buy-in from the beginning. It's as important as the story, or it's more important than the story. It was how we’ve come out of it so we can go back to those locations again and we're not ruining the stuff we're going to have to rely on – the planet – down the road. That's still going to be here longer than those stories.
Matthew Walsh
Just touching on future productions that you work on, the pair of you. Have there been any particular learnings that you've taken on from The Responder or from other productions that you would either encourage other productions to adopt or will be sure to implement on any work that you've got coming up? Any takeaway advice?
Barrington Paul Robinson
So, I think as I just said, it's just like about early buy-in and it being in the DNA and considering it. I mean, I'm not saying we need to rewrite the scripts to make them all green. But certainly, it was hard to do on The Responder, just to make sure that story and the world and the setting... we couldn't really push or promote a green agenda. It would have felt like a bolt on. But I think there are other stories and certainly stuff that I've read that are coming up that do sit more in that world. And it's easier to have it in our minds as we're going into it about how we can adopt these policies.
I think a lot of it basically is the knowledge of it. You know, and I suppose the hardest people, and I'm generalizing here because people will be at me for this, but the hardest people to persuade are people have done it for a longer time in a different way. So I think the schooling is like, at the beginning, the middle and the end. You know, in terms of people who have been in there for 30 years, 40 years in the game, we never did it like that. To the new ones coming in and as we get people transitioning from film school or production courses, whatever, that they understand what that bit is and how to move forward with that.
So, if you think about how you've got people at all entry points to the industry being aware, it's just going to make it a lot easier. Just not an awkward conversation ever. Don't beat your children, don't use plastics.
Zen Barry
I think just following on from that, I know Barrington talks about buying from the top and I think that's, it's so important. And whenever I'm speaking to production companies, you know, I'm trying to fathom who's going to be my ally on this production. And for me, someone like Barrington, who is just so passionate about it, because on set, if you've been on location, it's quite a hard place to be, to be honest. You're having conversations one by one, trying to win over hearts and minds. And they've all got arguments as to why electric cars are not, you know, don't reduce carbon emissions with electric cars. Everyone's got banter, everyone's got the arguments. They all bring it to you, especially if you've got quite a strong passion for trying to do the right thing. You know, you will get that pushback conversation after conversation.
So, hats off to Barrington for persevering with that and hopefully winning over a few people on that location so that they can learn some stuff and then they can take that onto their next production. That's what we want. There's a lot of training happening in this area as well. I know BAFTA has just launched quite a lot of new training schemes through the BFI and more to come. We need to train up finance as well to help support those carbon footprints so that the data quality is much more accurate. And so, there's going to be lots more training happening as we try and green the screen as much as possible.
Barrington Paul Robinson
Yeah. I love that, green the screen.
Matthew Walsh
That's what the episode's going to be called. Green the screen.
Zen Parry
I just that made up!
Barrington Paul Robinson
Let's get some t-shirts going. Obviously in sustainable material.
Carley Bowman
That's fantastic.
Barrington Paul Robinson
There's one other thing that I didn't mention before that I'd just like to say. It’s on this journey of discovery, and I think as a human being, truly as a producer, you're thinking so much about the show and the impact and the crew and the actors and the director and the writing and the budget and everything like this. And so, you are so consumed with that. So to take on another thing... initially you can look at it and go, geez, that's even more. But it is ingrained and it speaks to us as human beings. I think what's really important is to go down these rabbit holes and find out what's going on.
We're doing – I don't know what the time this goes out but we're doing... Accelerated City is a major thing that you'll be reading about that’s just happened when this comes out, in Liverpool this weekend. And just because of one of the panels I'm on, I've had to look into these people and what they've been doing. It's incredible. And it's crazy their contribution to this thing and how long they've been going. One of the things I didn't know about was a company called Green Rider. And it's the actors that have signed up to this Green Rider and they are now putting in their contracts certain things that they want to happen on this production before they sign up to it. And I think getting the talent at that end to buy in is also critical and crucial because the commissioners and the, you know... if they want this talent, they'll press harder. The production companies will push harder to make sure this thing happens if you've got your A-list celebrities saying, we ain't doing it unless... And so, it has to be a squeeze from all sizes to make it happen and to make it normal. Then once it's normalized, then it should be easy. Like me going to the gym.
Matthew Walsh
That's great. Thanks so much. Obviously, it's such a huge topic to cover and can at times feel a bit overwhelming just the enormity and the scale of everything. But it's been really nice to hear some encouraging words from you both about the actions that are being implemented across the screen industry at least. So, thank you both for joining us and discussing that. It’s been really good.
Zen Barry
Thanks guys.
Carley Bowman
Thanks very much guys. Thank you.
In conversation with Jimmy Keeping
Carley Bowman
Up next, it's our demystifying segment with Jimmy Keeping. Using his years of production experience, Jimmy co-founded Sustainable Film. It's a company that works with studios, crews and suppliers to provide solutions that address the unique challenges of sustainable film production.
Matthew Walsh
In 2025, ScreenSkills is partnering with them to offer sustainability-coordinated training. We spoke to Jimmy to hear more about what that role entails and how it's helping productions to reduce their carbon footprint.
Just a quick note before we hear this piece, you may hear a slight dip in audio quality as Jimmy was speaking to us live from a working studio.
Matthew Walsh
Jimmy Keeping, welcome to the Screen Skills podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.
Jimmy Keeping
Thank you so much. It's good to be here.
Matthew Walsh
Can you give us a quick overview of what exactly is a sustainability coordinator?
Jimmy Walsh
Basically, it’s to be the eyes and ears of sustainability on a production. There's a lot of communication in there. It's being able to communicate a sustainability plan across all the different levels of stakeholders and the production. And then ultimately putting all that together with a nice shiny package to be able to deliver to the studio, the broadcaster, the client to sum up what the carbon footprint is of the whole production.
Carley Bowman
So tell us about the work that you're doing in sustainability and your company and what drew you into doing that work? Why did you get into that?
Jimmy Keeping
Yeah, so we're... Sustainable Film is the consultancy that I run with Amelia Price, who's my business partner. So, we work directly with film and TV productions to implement a sustainability plan. You get to see that through production reports and at the end. So basically the work is coming on board as early as possible to a film or TV show, assessing what the potential carbon footprint could be of the production; working with all the different stakeholders, the HoDs, the producers, the production team, to formulate a sustainability plan; research everything around that, so where we're going to go onto locations, researching the different waste management options there, researching the different suppliers, researching the different sustainable power technologies we could use there. And then, like I said, bringing that all together in a nice, neat plan for the production team to sign off on.
And then we see that through, throughout the production phase. We'll have coordinators or sustainability assistants actually on the ground doing lot of the tracking, logging, communicating that across all the different levels of the production. And then once we get to wrap, we report on everything that we've done. So, wrap obviously is generally one of the busiest times when we're gathering resources, making sure that we're disposing of all of the waste appropriately. And then we're gathering everything to be able to sum it all up.
Carley Bowman
And so I guess you're there, it seems, at every stage of the process to support the production, right? It's an ongoing process. It's not just, this is the plan at the start, go off and do it. Or just kind of revising it at the end. It's like constantly, constant support all way through.
Jimmy Keeping
Absolutely. I think, you know, like all good plans, they merge and change and kind of meld themselves to the certain situations. So, yeah, it's about coming up with a very thorough plan at the beginning and then being agile enough to be able to roll with the punches and change as we go through. Yes, it's a very interesting job.
Matthew Walsh
And when it gets to those planning stages in the early parts of development and production, do you tailor anything specifically to an individual production or do you work to a more rigid set of guidelines that you then kind of tweak?
Jimmy Keeping
We've got an internal methodology that we've use across all of the different productions. So there's a range of elements on a production that are all very similar. You know, generally people go out onto location or they shoot in a studio. There's travelling aspects, there's power, there's waste. We've got a standard methodology that's put onto the production. We kind of see that through the phases of production. But all productions are completely different and where we might have a shoot that's 100% at the studio, obviously we'll have to treat that differently to one that's jumping around locations every other day. So yeah, we have a specific plan, let's say, that we like to follow through with production but in reality as soon as we get on day one it's about assessing what the biggest impacts are going to be on that show, where we really need to address, who we need to be speaking to about that and then kind of running that through as we go through the whole planning phase.
Carley Bowman
What kind of engagement are you getting from productions?
Jimmy Keeping
It's a real mix. So, I've been working in production sustainability for about 12 years now, think it is. And I remember the first job that I did. I was called environmental steward on a show, which... I really hate that term. And I remember it was very difficult to get anyone engaged at all. I spent the whole time kind of running around with bins and bin bags and bottles of water trying to just to allow people to see that someone was trying to make a difference in all the chaos and mess that we were creating. And yeah, really struggled with engagement throughout the whole chain really, from studio right down to the other assistants around me. Everyone was very focused in on what they had to do. They didn't, weren't aware of, you know, the wider impact that their work was having. Or they thought that it was the production's responsibility to address that and not their own responsibility to address their own impact. But now, yeah, 10 or so years down the line, it's a remarkable change. I remember there seemed to be a change, definitely post-Covid, where instead of me having to bang down on the doors of all the HoDs that we're working with, I had HoDs calling me up and saying, right, I need to make a change. What can I do about this? Or, I've got this material that I hate using, find me a replacement. So yeah, there's been a real big change. It's still not where it should be. I mean, sustainability should be mentioned in all conversations.
Matthew Walsh
From our conversations that we've had elsewhere, it seems to be locations and catering are some of the areas that people like yourself can target when it comes to sustainability. Are there any other particular departments or areas where you feel like you can get quite a good impact when it comes to reducing a carbon footprint?
Jimmy Keeping
Construction is obviously one of the largest impacts that we have as an industry, depending on the show of course. Generally, construction is huge. The amount of timber that's used, the amount of paint, plaster, poly, all of that. So yeah, that really does need to be tackled sooner rather than later. There's been some great reuse case studies being done. There's lots of cardboard sets that are being trialled and used on a mainstream. Yeah, more secure economy is great and that's exactly where we need to be. The use of chemicals by the department such as costume, SFX, props, the explosions that we're doing and the fog that we're creating. But power has been the number one enemy or the number one target area for definitely the studios and most of the broadcasters as well. It's an easy win within their scope so they can really have an impact on the production of carbon footprint from your fuel that you're using, reducing the amount of generators. That is... that's the main focus.
Matthew Walsh
Such a huge topic to discuss anyway, but it does seem to be one that is getting more prevalent and widely discussed within the screen industry, which is great. And obviously you're doing some training with ScreenSkills shortly to kind of encourage and grow and develop some more sustainability coordinators. Just wondering if you could speak about that a bit and what it will entail and how it will benefit the industry.
Jimmy Keeping
The training that we're putting together is really exciting. It's nice to be able to deliver a program, a training program that really nails what that role is supposed to be and gives complete training around that. So, the training itself is two weeks. The first week is online, the second week is in person. There are various topics that we're going to be looking at. Of course, some of the current calculators, how we go from the start of Albert right through to the finish of Albert, looking at the various aspects of sustainable production, looking at legislation that we fall under and other legislation across other industries that might be impacting us at some point down the line. And then looking at various different departments as well. Some excellent speakers from different departments are coming in and doing a whole half a day or day's worth of training. We'll be doing lots of site visits. We're hoping to go to a really well-used location on a production so that we could have, you know, do spot checks, sustainability spot checks, looking at what is happening, how we could potentially change it.
And then also going out to do some site visits. We're going to waste management plants to talk about what happens to your waste when it's put in a bin from a set and then beyond. There'll be lots about crew engagement, how we talk to different levels of the stakeholders, different supply chains, and how we truly try and communicate sustainability across the tone that you use with producers to the tone that you use with camera assistants which is completely different. Yeah, hopefully we'll be able to sum that up in a nice, neat package for trainees.
Carley Bowman
And Jimmy, what does it mean to you personally to be working in this area? And you must, obviously you've said it's what, 10, 12 years... What got you into it and how does it feel kind of working in this every day?
Jimmy Keeping
So, I went to film school so I came from a film background. I did a film degree in Cornwall. Yeah, I've always been a lover of nature, lover of the countryside, a lover of beaches. So yeah, whilst I was down in Cornwall, I just saw the complete destruction of the seas that we were surfing in daily, seeing all the sewage that was going into it, seeing the plastic waste floating on the shores. And then from my background, both of my parents were hippies growing up, so it was kind of ingrained to have an understanding of my impact on this world from a young age. After I finished uni, I went to go and do some work experience. I did a low budget horror movie where we were shooting Bodmin Moor in the middle of winter. We did three weeks of night shoots and it was terrible but I absolutely loved it and completely got hooked on it. And then I came up to London and worked on a film production and just saw the actual scale. Going from, you know, student movies where you haven't got any waste because you haven't got any money to make waste. And then going into low budget shows where actually it's about trying to keep the budget low and so we're keeping materials low. And then going on to a big film where there’s just people throwing around stuff, there's money being wasted everywhere, there is water bottles, completely full of water, plastic water bottles just left strewn over the set. I spent the whole time clearing all of that myself. Luckily on the next show that I worked on, it was on an NBC Universal show, and there was an asset slash sustainability person on that show. So, I got really fascinated by their role. And yeah, it just kind of called to my upbringing, called to my background. And yeah, it's been a really interesting and I'd say fun. It's been fun over the last four years. Prior to that, it was a complete slog and it was really, really, really challenging. But yeah, just kind of falling into this fun world, this new world of environmental sustainability and in film and TV. Yeah, it's been a ride, let's say.
Matthew Walsh
And for any productions either currently or future upcoming and budding film crew, where would you send them to find out a bit more about these practices and putting them at the centre of their work?
Jimmy Keeping
Yeah, there's quite a lot of resources out there now. Obviously, Albert is the number one go-to resource for sustainability in TV in the UK. So check out all the resources there. Of course, check out the Sustainable Film website because we've got some great blogs and content on there. Get in touch.
Carley Bowman
Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do and your dedication to it. And thank you for joining us for this conversation.
Jimmy Keeping
It's been great to talk to It's been a pleasure. Anytime. Thank you.
In conversation with April Sotomayor
Matthew Walsh
Now it's time to get a view from industry where we speak to screen industry professionals to get some of their thoughts about issues affecting productions in the workforce across the UK. This week we're speaking to April from BAFTA Albert.
April Sotomayor
Hi, I’m April Sotomayor. I'm the head of industry sustainability for BAFTA Albert. I look after our program certification, our training and our task forces and various projects that support industry sustainability initiatives.
Carley Bowman
Welcome April. Thank you so much for joining us. We're just going to get you to tell us what is BAFTA Albert? We've been talking about it a lot. Tell us about it.
April Sotomayor
BAFTA Albert is a not-for-profit organization within BAFTA that supports the screen industries to become more sustainable. We're on a mission to reduce the environmental impact of production, but also to use the industry's superpower in storytelling to elevate climate solutions and environmental action across our culture.
Matthew Walsh
And how long has it been running? When was it first established, BAFTA Albert?
April Sotomayor
BAFTA Albert has been running for about 13 years now, I believe. It started as a way to calculate the emissions of a production. So, it began as a spreadsheet and the sort of mythology... there's lots of stories depending on who you ask, but the main one I think I'll stick with is that there were two spreadsheets that originated within the BBC and one was called Victoria to calculate the BBC's emissions. And then the other was Albert to support calculating production emissions and that's really what we've best been known for is how we can get the industry to calculate its footprint and take action through a carbon action plan. Those two bits have always formed the basis of Albert certification but we do loads and loads around engaging the production community through training, learning, inspiration, and of course, celebration, which is something that we excel at BAFTA. The Carbon Action Plan is a way for production teams and crew to engage in meaningful environmental action. And we're doing a huge program of work to really accelerate deeper decarbonization activities on production. So I'd love to talk about that today. But overall, it's a way for us to provide resources, guidance, tools and inspiration for the industry to be more sustainable.
Carley Bowman
So do tell us then, April, a little bit more about the deeper decarbonisation projects.
April Sotomayor
So, in the UK, we've been certifying productions at scale really since the UK broadcasters signed the Climate Content Pledge before COP26. And that was really focused around climate content. But at the same time, the broadcasters mandated that every one of their productions that they commission achieve Albert certification. So it became this industry best practice way to engage in what are the important environmental actions that you need to take in production, not just calculating your footprint, but actually owning specific actions to reduce it. Last year, we certified over 2,500 productions.
Carley Bowman
Wow.
April Sotomayor
3,000 productions did carbon calculations via our toolkit. So we have a huge amount of engagement with our tools and our team are actively supporting these communities with lots of different guidance as well. We've got a biodiversity guide. We've got guidance around, you know, how to even think about kind of risk reduction with regard to climate mitigation. So if you're filming, how are freelancers affected by a changing climate? So it's really a big spectrum of work and knowledge that we share.
But what we really want to accelerate is the deeper work. So, as a society, we're working towards net zero and what that really means is that there's no kind of net negative impact that we have on the climate and on nature. And those two are inextricably linked. And we have to do all that at pace in a society that is fundamentally unsustainable. We've got... we don't have all the right infrastructure. We don't have all the right knowledge. A lot of it is expensive and really hard and all the incentives aren't necessarily in place.
So, this year we launched a variety of task forces that looked at different issues. But one of the most important task forces that we launched was our Sustainable Production Task Force. And it looks at, we look at as a group, and I should say that those people that form our membership contribute to these task forces. So these are industry heads of sustainability, as well as crew and production teams that feed in on workshops at key points. We also involve studios and others that we're always in conversation with and more and more bringing suppliers into the conversation because they are a huge opportunity for engagement and, you know, greenhouse gas reduction to help us get to where we need. So, our Sustainable Production Task Force has lots of participants from our broadcasters and streamers and members that are looking at some key impact areas. And these are energy, how do we reduce the carbon impact of the energy that we use? We use a lot, not just in our buildings, but in our power. So temporary power has been a huge focus and a priority this year.
We're also looking at materials and waste. So we know to make these incredible elaborate sets, requires a lot of materials in many cases. Where do these materials come from? How might we do things differently? Ultimately, where do they end up once sets are struck? So how can we divert, reduce, divert those to be reused? But also how do we reduce how much we're consuming in the first instance?
And then of course, one of the biggest areas is travel and transport. So, moving people and kit around the world in a global industry that films all over the place. So that is the biggest kind of carbon impact, but for all those reasons I mentioned before, like infrastructure, culture, expectations, it's a really hard thing for us to shift. That doesn't mean that we're not actively trying to sort it.
But our big focus at the moment is a mention on temporary power because that's something that we can get engagement with from crew and production teams at pace and especially suppliers. So last week we did a kick-off event in Liverpool at the UN Accelerator City launch. And we convened a of a focus group that included suppliers, but also people who would be producing in Liverpool and around the UK in 2025 to think about what it means if we were to go feel free by 2030? And that means really looking at how can we rely on battery technology and tying into the grid to reduce the environmental impact of power. And there's lots of co-benefits as well. So, if you think about the health impacts, you're using a generator all day, those are emissions that are significant, that are local, that are affecting the crew all day long, sometimes for weeks and weeks on end. So that will have an immediate benefit on people's health and, of course, a benefit on climate as well as cost.
So what we were exploring with our group in Liverpool was how can we accelerate that transition? Can we move away from diesel in 2025? Can we stop using diesel? And then what does it look like in terms of 2030? Can we transition, you know, temporarily to HVO, but also really thinking about using battery technology and again, powering into the grid wherever that's possible. And, of course, hybridization of batteries and generators in the interim.
Carley Bowman
And did you say April... at the beginning, you were talking about kind of the practical measures to reduce the carbon footprint, but also something about the storytelling? That's part of the cultural piece, I guess. Is that right?
April Sotomayor
Absolutely. So it's been a really big focus for us over the last couple of years, but especially this year. For the first time, we appointed a head of climate content who has been looking at really accelerating the knowledge within editorial teams around the opportunity for featuring climate content, whether it's implicit or explicit. We've done some really fantastic research, released late last year around what do audiences want? I think a lot of people think that audiences, you know, don't want to be told what to do. Or think that people are a bit exhausted by the doom and gloom of, you know, the fact of climate change. And we know that people are more inspired to act when things are seen in a positive light. They want to understand, you know, context and opportunity and, you know, how can life be better if you are living, you know, a lifestyle or acting in such a way that is kinder on the planet and kinder on people as well, of course. And so, some of this research has been going into how we measure climate content.
So the broadcasters, many of which have signed up to the climate content pledge are measuring this actively. And so we're really trying to suss out, you know, what does good look like in terms of climate content? So, it's really enabling more and better climate storytelling across the industry. So that can be really hard to pin down. Like, what does that look like? And we don't want to dictate, certainly, the kind of creative content that's put on screens. But we do want to be able to measure it. We want to be able to inspire people to see what that, you know, how interesting and exciting that could be. And we also want to be able to celebrate those that are doing it really, really well. And so, our team are looking at how we can build content and training and awareness around this across 2025.
Matthew Walsh
You touched upon there how some other studios might already have their own policies in place for this kind of issue. I was wondering, just as BAFTA is such a nationally and internationally renowned name and recognizable across the industry, how much awareness and kind of consensus is there between productions and companies? And do they all work to the same idea of the one best practice?
April Sotomayor
Well, the biggest thing that everybody agrees on is considering sustainability as early as possible. And that can all stretch all the way back into development. You know, where are you going to be filming? Thinking about who are you moving around the world and where and what resources do you need? All of that, like that could immediately eliminate carbon. But in pre-production, if you think about, you know, working with your suppliers as early as possible, making sure that those that you hire have some minimum knowledge and understanding.
We've worked with ScreenSkills over the last year to produce a free sustainability e-learning module, which has been wildly successful. I think over 2,000 people now have gone through it and it's had a really high success rate in terms of satisfaction and completion. So, it's what are the areas of impact that you have within your department? What can you own? What things can you do to avoid a negative impact? Who can you talk to? Many suppliers that we speak with are really interested in having this conversation. And they all tell us that as early as possible is really when you can, you know, co-design and co-agree solutions that will work for everybody. It's when you have a lot of last minute changes and demands that you end up having to take kind of the higher carbon option. Whether it's moving more people somewhere or ordering your catering last minute and you can't get sustainably sourced produce. There's so many quick wins within, if you look at each individual department and if you check out that e-learning actually, you can see, you create a little action plan. So just depends on the impact area. Catering's great, everybody eats. If you choose, you know, no meat or less and better meat in your order, that's great. If you can pre-order and avoid food waste, that's also great. Power, as I mentioned, is a really great win. I mean, just really get your teams on board with power planning and across multiple departments.
Carley Bowman
And how have you been able to measure the impact of all of these measures in the last five years, 10 years? You must be seeing a lot of progress. How do you measure that and what impact do you think this is all having?
April Sotomayor
This is a really, really great question. Well, we measure the impact to date through our carbon calculator and we are getting better and better every year at the quality and quantity of data that we get from productions. And you can see that in our annual review. What we're finding is, we can measure energy consumption, we can measure the impact of menus, we can measure the impact of people moving around the world. But we do need to get more accurate and complete data. We're overhauling our toolkit right now so that we can streamline the process to make sure that we're getting all of the data around what was used or consumed throughout the production. But we do know because the data is getting better and better, emissions are going up, which doesn't necessarily mean that the industry is emitting more. It may have emitted the same this year as it did last year. It may have emitted more or less. But the point being, as we get better at that data, we'll understand the impact of the new initiatives that we're putting in place. So eliminating diesel and generators, for example, that's a big win. If we can get everybody doing that, we have enough data to know that that's a really impactful thing to do. And as I mentioned, it's got co-benefits for health. Also sound and noise on set. And if we can look at these transition metrics of getting people away from that, a lot of studios have policies already. Some productions are already implementing these policies, but we just need actually everybody to do it. We need suppliers to be on board with helping with that solution as well.
Matthew Walsh
Great. Just a quick one to round up. As we're almost, well, we are in December now, but if we ignore Christmas and go straight to the new year, everyone's looking forward, making resolutions. If there's one piece of change that you're looking forward to seeing perhaps in the industry when it comes to sustainability, what would that be?
April Sotomayor
I think the culture shift and the mindset that everybody has a role to play. Some roles will move the needle more than others, but I think there is a role for everybody. It's even if you feel like you don't have any decision-making power, you can have a conversation. You can ask a question. You can talk to your supplier, can speak to your manager, you know, engage with our training, find a way and find a way to feel empowered as well.
Outro
Matthew Walsh
So that was episode three of the ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. Thank you to all of you for listening and I want to thank all of our guests for taking part and speaking to us today. Really interesting chats with all of them.
Carley Bowman
And I want to thank you, Matthew. I'm really enjoying doing this with you. It's been really great. If you do want more resources about sustainability to help you on your production or just to learn more about what can be done individually, then do check out our newsletter, our Insights newsletter. And also, you can check out BAFTA Albert website where they've got the toolkit that you can use. Also, ScreenSkills has a sustainability e-learning module, which is really well worth doing.
Matthew Walsh
And Jimmy's been kind enough to provide some content for the ScreenSkills website, which is live now. And if you do want to reach us directly, then get in touch at podcast@screenskills.com.
Carley Bowman
And don't forget to follow and share. We'd really like to get this message out to more people. Thanks very much.
Matthew Walsh
Until next time.
Carley Bowman
This has been a ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation, hosted by Matthew Walsh and Carly Bowman. It was produced and edited by Gabby Sharrock with guest booking by Anna Green and marketing by Natalie Tandoh. The design and imagery was created by Gabby Sharrock.
The third episode of the ScreenSkills podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, explores the topic of sustainability and how to embed practices within a production that help reduce its carbon footprint.
As the topic becomes an increasingly present consideration for the screen industry, we sat down with some of those working in decision-making roles across the workplace to discuss the practical steps of putting sustainability at the heart of productions and find out what impact they can have.
Producer Barrington Paul Robinson joined Zen Barry, who leads on production decarbonisation at the BBC, to share their personal views on the topic and how they were able to reduce the carbon footprint of hit BBC drama, The Responder by 64% when it came to the show's second series.
We then caught up with Jimmy Keeping from Sustainable Film to demystify the role of sustainability coordinator and learn about how they can help implement workable on-set solutions.
April Sotomayor, Head of Industry Sustainability at BAFTA Albert, then spoke about how the organisation is helping to shape industry-wide behaviours with guidance and actions that can be applied across all productions.
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Read top tips about sustainability practices within production
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Find out more about BAFTA Albert's toolkit