The second episode of the new ScreenSkills podcast is now live! Listen below or subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Dr Amit Patel
People would say, we're not sure how a disabled person is going to fit in this environment. So you kind of heard that all the time. It took one person to see my ability, not my disability. And that person gave me the confidence and motivation and the support I needed. And it was a complete stranger, someone who didn't know me at all, who said ‘we need this in the industry’.
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We've done all these initiatives, and it rawly exposed, therefore, where our problems are in a way that some industries haven't done yet.
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When I started off my career in this space, you had conversations about DNI in a moving lift, quietly in a corner. Now we're in a completely different forum where, actually, you're able to have conferences such as this.
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If I one message, it was we need to work together as a sector.
EPISODE PREVIEW
Host Carley Bowman
In this month's episode, we're bringing you highlights from our Skills for Change conference held in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. Across four sessions, members of the UK screen industries came together to discuss equity, diversity and inclusion and to explore how skills, training and development programmes can change behaviour and culture in the sector.
Laura Mansfield soundbite
Inclusion doesn't just stop at making sure everyone has a place at the table, it's about making sure that our content resonates with the whole audience. A workforce that better reflects the UK's population will help create stories that speak to everyone.
Carley Bowman
You'd also hear the views from some of the organisations that joined us on the day, as Amos from The Kusp, Anita from the Film and TV Charity and Jess from BECTU share how their work aims to improve access to entry and make the workplace open to everyone.
MAIN INTRO
Host Matthew Walsh
Welcome to the Screen Skills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. I'm Matthew Walsh.
Carley Bowman
And I'm Carly Bowman.
Matthew Walsh
And we're your host from Screen Skills, the UK-wide skills body for the screen industries. But the real focus is on those working in film, TV and animation across the UK as we unpick the stories that matter to them.
Carley Bowman
Each episode, we explore different themes within the industry and speak to some of its members to discuss how it impacts both their and the wider sector's work. We go beyond the camera to get the behind-the-scenes breakdown on all things production, and we hear from those making the content you love.
Matthew! It's our second episode. It's great to be back!
Matthew Walsh
Yeah. Thanks to everyone for tuning in, especially our returning listeners. For those who haven't listened to episode one, feel free to go back and listen to the first one, but you're very welcome here on episode two. How are you, Carley?
Carley Bowman
Very well. Thank you. I'm still really inspired by the conference we've just been to, which ScreenSkills organised in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. It was a really, really great day. We got lots of people from industry into a room to talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, and some of the issues in the screen industries. And it was just really great. There was a real appetite for learning how to make some changes, small or big, to improve inclusion generally.
Matthew Walsh
Yes, it was really great to hear how we could come together from all walks of the industry to embed some of these practices into the training and the workplaces. Sadly, you won't be able to hear all of the panel conversations. They did go on for the whole day, as I mentioned, but details of each of the panels and the speakers can be found on the ScreenSkills website if you wanted to dig a little deeper.
Carley Bowman
One of my favourite parts of the day was Dr Amit Patel's keynote speech at the end of the conference. And we were so lucky, he was very generous with his time. We were able to sit down and ask listener questions, put them directly to him with his guide dog under the table.
Matthew Walsh
Yeah, really inspiring chat with Dr Amit. So Carly, shall we kick off there?
Carley Bowman
Let's do it. Let's get back to our sit down with Dr. Amit Patel.
ASK ME ANYTHING WITH DR AMIT PATEL
Carley Bowman
It's fair to say that being an animated star of children's TV wasn't the long-term plan for Dr Amit Patel. Having dedicated his career to medicine, qualifying as a doctor after studying at Cambridge University, his life was changed when he lost his sight while working as an A &E doctor. Since then, Amit has learned to live with his sight loss and has become a consultant for equity, diversity and inclusion, as well as a motivational speaker, author, broadcaster and star of CBeebe's show, Dog Squad, alongside his guide dog, wife and children.
Matthew Walsh
He is also featured as a specialist contributor to news programmes on all the major UK broadcasters. We sat down with Dr Amit as part of our Ask Me Anything segment to get his responses to some of the questions that you sent in.
Dr Amit Patel
My name is Dr Amit Patel. I'm a DEI consultant. I'm an author, I'm a broadcaster, and my background is medicine. So nothing really gels. It's all very, very kind of hit and miss. I was a doctor, but I was an A &E doctor, a trauma doctor. I love the hustle and the bustle. I can't sit behind a desk all day. I'm very spontaneous. A &E kind of gave me that. And since losing my sight, it was quite...quite a sore moment to go back into the NHS because working on the front line is what I love doing. I don't see myself working behind the scenes, but we noticed that there were a lot of issues when I lost my sight. The help, the support, the education wasn't there. I found as a doctor very difficult to get the help and the support I needed. So I went into campaigning.
On the back of the campaigning, it was right, I need to focus. I need to wake up in the morning and do something I love. I love being a doctor. You know, I'd work 24 hours a day if I had to, but I needed to wake up and find what I wanted to do. So I learned new skills. I learned to use a white cane. I learned to read Braille, not all blind people read Braille. I learned to read Braille. I needed to occupy myself with something when I was sat at home. And it just went from trying to find a job - and people would not hire me because on the final part of your application, I would always put, I lost my sight, I went to a good university. This is what I studied. This is what I did, but I recently lost my sight and since losing my sight, these are the new skills I've acquired. Learning to use a screen reader, learning to navigate using a white cane, all of these things, but I never got a job.
And when I did have interviews, people would say, we're not sure how a disabled person is going to fit in this environment. So you kind of heard that all the time. And it was, it was this one amazing lady who got in touch with me off social media and said, Amit, I've heard you speak, you know, talking about getting back into work as a disabled person. Let me help you amplify your voice. Her name is Stacy Scott, who's a lawyer. And she works in diversity and inclusion. And she said, people need to hear what you're talking about. On the back of that, I work around the world now for work. It took one person to see my ability, not my disability. And that person gave me the confidence and motivation and the support I needed. And it took a complete stranger, someone who didn't know me at all, to say, we need this in the industry.
But then it was working on TV for me - I was asked to do a lot of debates on TV, talking about disability, talking about medicine. And then the children's programme came around during COVID when the BBC said, we don't have anything to film. We think it'll be great for you. I had a three-year-old at the time who stopped going to nursery, started watching TV at home while me and my wife were both working from home.
And one day over dinner, he did say to us, daddy, why aren’t there people like us on TV? I don't see brown people, and this is a three-year-old. I'm like, you watch way too much TV! But he said, there's nobody on TV who represents us. There's nobody. So, talking to Hello Halo, working with Hello Halo, we now have this amazing show called Dog Squad. And the amazing thing is that my kids and my wife are on the show as well and they play themselves.
And to them it's not, this is a TV show, it's real life. There's just this camera crew around us. But I love the fact that we show not just kids, but families, that having a disability doesn't mean you do anything less, you just do it differently.
Carley Bowman
Well, I think that really does answer Erin's question. So, thank you.
Matthew Walsh
Certainly does. Thank you very much.
Carley Bowman
We've got another question from Lisa in Manchester. Again, talking about your TV work. So she says, what adjustments can productions make to make it more accessible for everyone?
Dr Amit Patel
This is a great one. So everybody is different. For me, I'm completely blind. I don't see anything in front of me whatsoever. It's simple things like, if I'm going to get a script, make sure it's screen reader compatible. Don't hand me a paper script. But the most important thing is have a conversation with me. Have a conversation with the person you're going to be working with and say, what do you need? What can we do to make this work for you? And it's probably a lot simpler than you actually think. You overthink things sometimes if you don't know. And it is just having that conversation. That's the crucial part, is having that conversation.
What I tend to do is have a conversation with the entire team. Even before filming, it'll be, right, if anybody doesn't know anything, it's fine to ask me, you know? And you will find people who have never worked with a visually impaired person will start giving you amazing audio description. They will come over and just pat, tap you and say, Amit, I'm here. Or Amit, can you hear my voice? This where you need to walk towards. Simple things. It doesn't have to be overly complicated. It doesn't have to be expensive. It literally is communication. And I think communication is the key.
Carley Bowman
That's really interesting because on our last episode, we spoke to Ellie Beaton from the TV Access Project, and she was talking about The Five A's and how to embed those into all workplaces. And one of the things was ‘ask’. And it's just a really, really simple concept.
Dr Amit Patel
I think people want to ask a question, but they don't want to offend, or they think they should already know the answer. And that's when it starts to get a bit complicated when you want to ask, but you're not quite sure. And someone like me who doesn't see people's facial reactions, I find it really hard to turn, jump in and say, well, trust me, because I don't know that you kind of want to ask that question. So it's communication. It really is. Just as simple as that. We're not going to be offended.
Actually, if anything, I love the fact that when I go onto a set and someone's got 15 questions, I'm like, perfect. You know what? You're thinking about this. I love the fact that you've thought about this already.
Matthew Walsh
Weirdly, that touches on one of the questions that we had in from Andrea in Leeds, which is literally people can often be scared about saying the wrong thing when it comes to all forms of disability and accessibility. Is there any messaging you can pass on when it comes to language?
Dr Amit Patel
Don't even think it. If it's a question, it's a question. If you don't know, you don't know. Just don't make it rude. Just think about the tone you're asking the question in and that's about it.
Matthew Walsh
In that case, we'll move on to Nick, who's a production office trainee who asks, have you worked with access coordinators before? And if so, what impact can they have for those with access needs on production sets?
Dr Amit Patel
See, I love the idea of access coordinators. I haven't worked with any. When I did Dog Squad, I talked to the production company straight away. And it was, right, what do you need, how can we help? But I love the idea. Because I'm a one-man band. I don't have a PA with me. I don't have anybody else. I literally turn up to set on my own with a dog. And then it's like, my gosh, where's Amit's help? I don't have any of that. I know what I'm doing before I get there. I like to know what I'm doing. I like to know where the location is.
It's always nice for someone to give me a little bit more information when I get there. But it's that bridge. And I think sometimes having a coordinator, it bridges that gap from if you're on your own and you don't have that help and support and the production team doesn't know what they're doing or they're not quite sure, you've got someone there who does know. And it takes that awkwardness away. And you tend to save time, energy. You get a lot more done, you're more productive. I think it's a great idea.
Carley Bowman
So we've had another question. Obviously, this is all about productions and being on set. This is Anwar in Kent. He says, productions can be really closed off and tightly organised spaces. How easy is it for them to accommodate your dog, Quark? And are there any changes that have to be made to do so?
Dr Amit Patel
Do you know what? Not really. There's no, there's nothing that you really need to do if someone's got an assistant dog. So, for me, Quark's my guide dog. There's always a bowl in my bag. Water is all he needs. Maybe someone who is comfortable around the dog just to maybe hold him for five minutes while I'm talking to the rest of the team or something? That's very much it. Our dogs are trained to be working. I kind of see Quark as my mobility aid. He's kind of my best friend as well while he's at work with me. It's always nice to have my dog with me all the time. But there's nothing you really need to do as long as there's somewhere for him to wee and poo. The basics. It's a dog, right? It's a dog at the end of the day.
All dogs are different sizes, they're all different breeds, so they all have their different needs. Just talk to the owner. There's really not a lot you need to do.
Carley Bowman
And we can attest to that, I think Quark might be actually sat under the table.
Matthew Walsh
Very well behaved. Asleep!
Dr Amit Patel
Is he?! This is it. I think a lot of people think that because you have an assistance dog, it takes a lot more. It doesn't. They are trained to sit back and relax when they're not working, or you tell them what to do and they'll do it.
Getting a guide dog though to do something 10 times over is a big no-no because if you're filming something - and I think the production team at Hello Halo realised this straight away - if we're filming something, you need to have a lot of cameras on at the same time because a guide dog will do something twice, third time around, it'll think, you're going to drop something over there so I'm not going to walk that way, I'm just going to walk the other way. Because they're intelligent. Thyey know what to do. But you put a carrot in front of them, it's a whole different thing. They'll follow that carrot all day long.
Matthew Walsh
Speaking of having a lot of cameras on you, our last question comes in from Monica in the West Midlands. She says, this year, the biggest show on TV, Strictly Come Dancing, has its first ever blind contestant. How important do you think this is in terms of representation? And what do you think the experience of performing on a show like that would be for him?
Dr Amit Patel
Do you know, Chris is an amazing guy. Chris is funny, but he just happens to be blind as well. It's funny that when he joined, I was reading headlines saying, first ever, world ever, blind guy joins Strictly Come Dancing. I kind of saw Chris as, well, you're not the blind guy, you're a comedian. Even as a blind guy, I have absolutely no rhythm, right? No rhythm, but I will dance, I do my daddy dance all day long. It's that whole, I don't see him as a disabled person. I see Chris as Chris. And it's when we start labelling it and saying, you know, are we ever going to have another blind person now Chris has done it? Is Chris is going to be a one-off? And that's what I'm afraid of.
You know, we've had quite a few disabled contestants on there, but is that it? Are they all going to be one-offs or are we going to have more? That's my problem. That's why I kind of see it in a way that... it's amazing that Chris is there, but you know what? I don't want it to be the last time that a visually impaired person or disabled person is there. And I don't want it to be a big deal that a disabled person is on the show. I think it's when we start highlighting, you've got an Asian family on this show, where you've got a disabled person, and it's such a big thing and then it disappears. And I'm like, well, no, it should be the norm.
You know, in society, you've got blind actors, you've got deaf actors, you've got disabled actors, but they're actors. They're in a profession like everybody else. But I don't think they all want to be known as that disabled actor. They want to be known as actors. And I think that's what I try and teach my kids is... My kids don't see me as a disabled dad. They see me as dad. And the funny thing is, my kids know me as being blind all their lives. They don't even know me any different.
I would do the school trips every day to school, either with a white cane or a dog. My kids' friends will see me every day. But when they come to our house, I don't walk around with a white cane and Quark isn't in the harness. I walk around my house because I know where everything is. I will interact with them. I'll play with them. And they'll say to my son, how does your dad do that? How does he walk around without hitting the wall and doing this? And how does he make it? He’ll say, well, he's Superman at home. His cane or Quark is the cape when he leaves the house. And they’re like, yeah, that makes sense! It's lovely that I will walk home sometimes and if my daughter's got a play date, I've got two or three
girls with me as we're walking home and they don't see me as the blind and the parents don't see me as a blind parent they see me as Amit. So, you know, we start taking those barriers away and it's not Chris the blind comedian, it's Chris the comedian on there and that's what I kind of want to see. I want to see more representation without highlighting the fact that, look we've got a disabled contestant on.
Matthew Walsh
What a lovely answer. Thanks so much Dr Amit.
Dr Amit Patel
My pleasure, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure, thank you.
Matthew Walsh
Thank you Quark as well!
SKILLS FOR CHANGE CONFERENCE HIGHLIGHTS PART 1
Matthew Walsh
We'll now bring you more from some of the conversation from the Skills for Change Conference with highlights from the day's first panel hosted by broadcaster and Channel 4 newsreader Ayshah Tull.
Carley Bowman
They discussed embedding EDI practices in the workplace while members of the panel shared their own experience with exclusion and how both creative and structural barriers prevent entry and progress within the industry.
Ayshah Tull
So please welcome to the stage Laura Mansfield from ScreenSkills, Pete Johnson from the British Screen Forum, Mel Rodrigues from Creative Access and Miranda Wayland from Creative Diversity Network. Welcome all.
So, I wanted to start Miranda with you, put you on the hotspot. How do you define EDI at the moment? And what does it mean to you personally? Why does it matter?
Miranda Wayland
So, diversity for me, in terms of how it's actually perceived in the industry, I think has been misconstrued. I think when we think about diversity, it's almost from an exclusionary point of view that we focus on one particular group over another. Its true definition is about the representation of everyone.
The person sitting next to you is diversely different to yourself. Therefore, we are all diverse. So I think sometimes we misappropriate the word in its own true meaning. I'm quite passionate about trying to course correct that. The equity bit is a terminology that I think the industry and myself have become very much more comfortable with. We understand about disparagy. We understand about non equitable behaviour patterns, whether it's through finance or access or visibility.
Inclusion has definitely been on the parallel for equity. Again, I think it's a much more acceptable, understood terminology. We want to all feel included and I guess, depending where you are, either in your social standing or your work dynamics or relationships, you can often pinpoint a moment in time where you were excluded and what that felt like. And then that makes it easier for you to understand how those who are being excluded are probably navigating the day-to-day world with that type of identity.
Ayshah Tull
Let's move back into the screen industries and why diversity might be quite difficult and why it might be difficult when you compare it to other industries as well. Mel, I wanted to get your take on this. Why do you think it is so difficult sometimes in the screen industry?
Mel Rodrigues
We're not alone by any means, but there may be some structural reasons or historic reasons why we have certain barriers that other sectors don't. Just to kind of peel back a layer, so Creative Access works with the whole of the creative sector. And I've come from TV, so I've been learning quite hard and fast what those different barriers in those different sub-sectors are. And it's so interesting because the ones that have, for example, a similar freelance workforce, like music is a good example, there are similar barriers to entry in terms of who you know, how to get that foothold, how to then financially maintain yourself in those years when you're trying to build a reputation, build a portfolio. So there are some similarities, but then they start to divide off.
I was looking at some data from the UK music's latest diversity survey and their ethnicity representation is really good. I think the UK population, Asian population is at 9.4%. Music representation within that sector is something like, I'm going to check my notes to get it right, but I think it's something like 7.8 % of Asian ethnicities. So, TV for example, I know from the latest Diamond data, we have a real challenge with South and East Asian representation in screen. So I see there probably being ways that we can borrow from related sectors and try to find out what it is that they're doing well and also what they can borrow from us because we're doing better, I think, in other areas, particularly gender representation and disability.
We're doing a lot better than we were and there's a phrase that gets bandied about which is ‘taking a risk on unknown talent’ which I think is so unfounded. It's not a risk, it's actually an opportunity to work with untapped talent that you haven't met yet. But there's a bit of that going on which I think holds us back. But I think that happens in other areas of creative discipline where there are high stakes. People want to put in some kind of buffers to make sure it doesn't fail. And that's sometimes where we lose the opportunities to recruit more diversely and be truly accessible to lots of different people with lots of different identities.
Ayshah Tull
That phrase, taking a risk, really kind of hit home for so many people. I was the risky one on Newsround, which is ridiculous because I had loads of years in the industry.
Mel Rodrigues
And it can be risky within genres. Like I directed for maybe 10 years and I was told it might be a risk to put me on to a different genre. And I was like, I think I'll be all right. But again, the fact you have to make the case, there's another step. But anyway, they missed out on a female disabled director. But that's not the point. The point is that if we can change a bit of that language and change a bit of that perception, because actually that person can bring something to your production that isn't already there.
Ayshah Tull
Pete, what do you think are some of the difficulties in this industry, just following up on from what Mel was saying?
Pete Johnson
Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot of structural factors and there's quite a few of them. They sort of interplay with each other. A lot of the sort of day-to-day hiring for those projects is done by very small companies who won't necessarily have their own HR department. They will be run by a small creative led team, whereas the larger companies are doing the commissioning, are often one step removed from that hiring process. There's sort of a disconnect there. And that freelance nature, particularly in early stages of career, makes it very, very difficult to stay in if you don't have that capital.
So particularly with socioeconomic diversity. That's a real barrier. We've seen lots of access schemes aimed at getting people into the sector and have some success getting people their first placement. But then when you go back two, three years later, are they still in the sector? And often they're not. And I sometimes liken this to, you know, we've got this bucket and we've got endless pipes set up around the bucket to pour more and more people in at the top. But the bucket's got a great big hole in it.
Ayshah Tull
How do you deal with that?
Pete Johnson
Yeah, I think it's a problem. There are two things I would say. Firstly, we're doing a bit of research at the moment with some partners in the sector about whether more could be done through the tax and benefit system to help support freelance creatives. Some other countries have specific schemes to help creative freelancers build a career in the sector. So we're looking at whether some of that could help in the UK. And then secondly, I think as a sector, we need to look at this as a sector wide problem, rather than a problem for individual companies on the ground. Work together as a sector, not just TV, but film and TV, not just film and TV, but games, not just film, TV and games, but also social video as well, because increasingly the workforce is going to be building career across all those different parts of the sector. And so we need to work together as a sector in order to try and solve some of those things.
There's a bit of research that Sutton Trust did recently, which showed that in the screen sectors alone, there are 118 different diversity initiatives. 118. And when you compare that with other sectors, that's an awful lot. And it's particularly an awful lot when you're not making that much progress. A lot of those schemes will be very good, but we don't know which ones are very good. And the ones that are, not being used as best practice for the others. And most of them are focused on one or two characteristics rather than on the broad range.
The fragmentation of the approach matches the fragmentation of the industry. That's a reason why it's difficult, but I don't think it's an excuse for not doing better because we're not the only sector that has a fragmented workforce. The construction sector, you know, lots of big companies, lots of very small contractors, but they don't have the same problem on socioeconomic diversity, for example. And that's partly because lots of people who have very privileged backgrounds don't want to be bricklayers and plasterers. They do want to work in TV and film. So we've got to work harder to address that. And we've got to learn from what other sectors do.
The other thing just finally to say is it's also true that we have a very complicated route into our sector. You can't say, well, you do this at A level, you do that at university, and then you get a career in the screen sectors. That's not true for lot of other sectors like law or accountancy, or that have made a lot of progress because they can target that one route and really focus on that. We've got to take a much more holistic approach which looks at where people are dropping out, where the disadvantages are kicking in at every stage through the process.
SOUNDBITE INTERLUDE
My name’s Amos, I'm the founder and managing director of The Kusp, which is a not-for-profit social enterprise that exists to improve access for underrepresented talent in the creative media industries.
My name is Jess Glashier, my pronouns are she, they, and I am an organising official for BECTU, the trade union for creative industries.
I'm Anita Herbert and I'm the Reel Impact Programme Manager at the Film and TV Charity.
Matthew Walsh
What obstacles do you think are still in place within productions that we need to address?
Amos
I think there's so many different facets and things to address within the industry. When a lot of talent is coming from universities or changing industries they look for training and sometimes training can be quite expensive.
Jess
My number one thing is always as a disabled person and as someone who supports the Disabled Members Network and Committee with BECTU is asking about access requirements. It's still such a basic thing that people don't do. Probably most people will say, no, but some people might say, my God, I do and I feel so much more included by this.
Anita
So, Reel Impact is all about supporting black and white majority behind the scenes in film, TV and cinema. Our support is from mid to senior levels, so people that know their craft but maybe have hit a glass ceiling and need that additional support just to get them to that next step.
Jess
We ran a survey recently for disabled members of the union and one of the number one things was that people felt like if they disclosed their disability or if they at any point said anything about needing reasonable adjustments, that they wouldn't be hired again or that they might not be called or they might be let go from the job and all these kinds of things. These were major worries for people who filled in the survey. And I think that's a major barrier as well. People thinking, I'm not going to be able to work so I'm going to just not ask or stop working in the industry because it's not accessible and that's not good enough. We're losing talent. There areso many people who have got so much to give to the industry who are stuck outside of it because of these barriers to access.
SKILLS FOR CHANGE CONFERENCE HIGHLIGHTS PART 2
Ayshah Tull
Do you think the economy is making it so that we're falling, I say we, but the industry is falling back on those old kind of tropes and those old stereotypes? 2020, it just was such a kind of light bulb moment for so many people. Four years on, there's just lots of disillusionment. Lots of people are saying, you know, do we even need ED &I schemes anymore? Do we need to bother? Is it important anymore? Do you think the economy has something to do with that?
Miranda Wayland
I think the economy and our consumers play a huge part in that because they have much more choice and opportunity in a way that, perhaps when I started out in the career, there wasn't that flavour for it. And also they are less forgiving for you to catch up with their expectations and needs. All of this compounded and the need to get a return on investment in terms of making sure that our programmes are globally attractive, that they hit a potential audience demographic, like it needs to be successful. There are a number of touch points that will influence a decision as to which programmes get made and by whom and when and where. And also the scheduling of it and the marketing that sits behind it and the branding that sits behind it and how we go out to market to attract those audiences.
I think for me, personally, and potentially as we look to evolve the conversation around diversity, equity and inclusion, it's about where are the power dynamics? Who are those key decision makers and how often are we continuously reminding them of the consequence to action for the decisions that they make?
Ayshah Tull
Laura, how difficult is it to have those conversations with politicians or big broadcasters? How difficult is it to challenge people and say, actually, we need to do better, we need to be more representative? Do they want to hear it? Are they willing to hear it?
Laura Mansfield
I think they do. I mean, you I think you listen to our culture secretary talk at the moment, Lisa Nandy. She speaks very, very powerfully about the fact that talent is everywhere, opportunity is not. And the fact that there is an extraordinary amount of talent in the UK from every background who are not having the opportunity, whether it's to get in or to get on. So I think that actually, the door is open. I think that there is real hunger right across Government and cross-party as well to see real change. And I think there's been a recognition of the challenges in creative industries around diversity and inclusion, but in many, many industries as well. But also, I think, an understanding that we as a sector want to do something about it. And I think it's then starting to look at practical solutions to some of these systemic challenges, which as we've been hearing, there's not one neat thing to do, but there are some practical solutions.
So for example, Pete talking about pipelines and pathways and some of the projects that we're going to be looking at ScreenSkills, working across the industry, is really to be looking at how can we track and map and represent and pathway point so that we can understand what are the different programmes and initiatives that are out there. But if we join together and identify that and look at how do we retain, how do we support these people with brilliant skills, we can keep them and help them make that next step.
Ayshah Tull
And it's to Pete's point of 118 different programmes and maybe sitting down and getting all together and simplifying them. I just think it's ridiculous that 118, you just think, gosh, who's going to know all of that and know where to get help and know where to navigate?
Laura Mansfield
In a way, it's a problem born out of positivity. And I think that we should recognise that all of those initiatives and schemes have come from the industry recognising that there is a problem and wanting to do something about it.
Ayshah Tull
Mel, I wanted to bring you in as well again, but just wanted to talk about the regions and making sure that they're reflected in this conversation. How difficult is it at the moment, do you think, for people to get involved in our industry when you're not in London?
Mel Rodrigues
Yeah, it is a challenge. So at Edinburgh TV Festival, a lot of conversation happened around the M25 privilege. It's not as simple as that, but I think that if you live somewhere where you have easy transport and easy routes into cities that have theatres, cinemas, places where you can learn your craft, places where you can meet people, places where you can absorb culture and start to get those wonderful kind of contact points, you are more likely to then be able to make your own with steps.
I was born in Redditch. Lovely little town in the West Midlands, just 14 miles south Birmingham. And because we were classed as Worcestershire, not Birmingham, we didn't get any of the arts outreach and engagement from Birmingham because we were literally just on the cusp of the city border. So I had to go to Bristol to get it. And I've mostly lived my career out in the Nations and regions and had some fantastic opportunities.
But I think we also had to think about regions in terms of like, urban versus rural. Transport links are so important, but also just understanding, you know, to Lisa Nandy's point that talent is everywhere. Incidentally, I think ScreenSkills is really good at trying to really do that engagement. You know, when I was in Bristol in my previous role, we ran the high-end TV road show in Bristol and went around all these schools. You know, these kids had a riot, you know, I was having to wear a strange wig and carry a clapperboard and it was a bit odd.
Ayshah Tull
A bit like Newsround!
Mel Rodrigues
But when you do the engagement, you get back so much. But the commentary from the teachers in Eastern in Bristol or Longwell Green in Bristo - which are not well-served areas for the creative industries where we have no contact points with Bristol's creative sector - we don't know how to tell these kids how to get into these roles because we have no contact points, even though Bristol's, after Manchester is the second largest, I think, hub.
We've got so much work to do to try to strengthen those links. But I don't think we should beat ourselves up too much because the reason that we're seeing all the gaps in our representation is because for the last 10 years, we've done the work to work out what the gaps are. And we've done all these initiatives and it's exposed, it's really exposed, therefore, where our problems are in a way that some industries haven't done this yet. The reason we sometimes beat ourselves up is because we know the beast. We've actually done a lot of work and now we're next level. And for me, next level includes that much deeper engagement, not just outside of London, but outside of urban centres.
Ayshah Tull
Pete, let's go on to solutions and stuff. What do you think are some of the solutions that you want to see kind of over the next couple of years? It's lovely to hear Mel's point of positivity, because I'm a news journalist and we think of everything negative. That positivity of what we can do next. We found all of these problems, so what should we do?
Pete Johnson
I think the industry is up for change and is very well disposed to having those conversations as the 118 different initiatives. That's all people who have actually fought, you know, they've actually made an investment, they've devoted time, but it's the lack of coordination. It's the lack of evaluation. It's the lack of cooperation between those schemes. They could all be focused on the same three schools in West Yorkshire for all anybody knows.
And we need to work together to work out which initiatives are working best and how we can all get behind those initiatives to really move the dial on some of these things. If I have one message, it was we need to work together as a sector and not seeing this as individual company problems, individual sub-sector problems. People who work in the sector, we used to have a thing where, you worked on film or you worked in telly and people were quite protective about whether they were film or telly. Now people are working across both and production companies are working across both. The workforce is going to be working across fast different arrays of types of content and those of us who are in on the business side, working across those, have got to work together to try and solve that problem because we're all relying on the same workforce.
Ayshah Tull
Miranda, do you think that all of these companies in different sectors will be able to work together and push forward? Do you feel like change is happening or are you more on the pessimistic side?
Miranda Wayland
God, no. Absolutely. Change has been happening in my own lifetime, which is amazing because God knows I need to see return on investment for myself. But I think about when I started off my career in this space, you had conversations about D &I in a moving lift, quietly in a corner. Now we're in a completely different forum. We're actually able to have conferences such as this. And we're actually able to call out the discrimination and the inequities. And we're starting to build it into the strategy rather than it feeling like it's a bolt on.
I think the 118 initiatives demonstrates the industry's appetite and desire to do something. I wouldn't be sitting here doing this role and investing my time if I didn't think there was change. And I'd love to get to a point where we talk about no longer starting with the premise that there's still a long way to go but we're actually looking back and going, my God, look how far we've come. That's where I want to be.
Ayshah Tull
Don't want to put you out of a job, but do you see a day where this kind of ED &I is just embedded into everything we do and it's not separate, separated?
Miranda Wayland
I always find that question really interesting because you never say that to finance. And you never say that about CEOs and you never say that about any other division. It's always been a really interesting conversation. Why would you not want to have this role exist? Diversity is not a finite issue. It's an infinite issue. As we learn about ourselves, society, the way that we operate, we think, new characteristics come out. We weren't talking about socioeconomic diversity five, six years ago. We talk about it now. We weren't really laser focused on transgender because it became a big part of another acronym.
But I think the role and the power of what it can do to bring people together to remind us of the importance of it needs to be continuous in the same way that I would want a finance director to be sitting in any organisation to remind us about the bottom line.
Ayshah Tull
It's been a really interesting first conversation. You guys have been brilliant. To Miranda, to Pete, to Mel and to Laura. Thank you very much indeed for that first session. Thank you.
EPISODE ROUND UP
Matthew Walsh
So that was episode two of the ScreenSkills podcast in partnership with the Adobe Foundation. Big thank you to all of our guests for taking part, the panel speakers and attendees at the Skills for Change Conference, especially Dr Amit Patel.
Carley Bowman
Thank you to you for listening. And join us next time where we'll be talking about sustainability. World leaders gathered in Azerbaijan for climate talks at COP29, but we'll be talking about how productions can take simple steps to reduce their carbon footprint. Barrington Paul Robinson, producer of the BBC's BAFTA nominated drama, The Responder, and Zen Barry, the BBC sustainability production manager, tell us how they achieved a 64 % reduction on the second series. We also hear from Jimmy Keeping, who is a sustainability practitioner for film and TV productions, and April Sotomayor from BAFTA Albert.
Matthew Walsh
So do look out for episode three, wherever you get your podcasts. But if you do want to get in touch with us before then, or find out more about any of the topics discussed, then you can email us at podcast@screenskills.com or just visit the Screen Skills website. But until then, thank you very much for listening and we'll see you next time.
The second episode of the podcast, launched in partnership with The Adobe Foundation, features a conversation with broadcaster, author, motivational speaker and star of his very own CBeebies show, Dr Amit Patel, held before his keynote speech at the Skills For Change conference.
Before he took to the stage, he answered your questions on his move from medicine to the screen, making productions accessible environments and the practicalities of having a working dog on set.
The episode also features highlights from a panel held at the conference as industry leaders joined ScreenSkills CEO, Laura Mansfield, and host, broadcaster and journalist, Ayshah Tull, to discuss embedding EDI practices into the workplace.
Discover more
Read more about the Skills for Change conference
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Read the Q&A with Dr Amit Patel